Navigating the tumultuous journey of motherhood is akin to steering through a storm with an ever-shifting horizon. In our latest stirring conversation, we have the privilege of hosting Gayane Aramyan, a licensed marriage and family therapist whose expertise and personal battles with postpartum depression offer a beacon of hope. She unveils the raw complexities of motherhood, addressing the guilt, societal pressures, and the unspoken challenges of seeking help during the postpartum period. Together, we unpack the layers of resilience exhibited by mothers across generations, drawing heartfelt parallels between women in post-Soviet Armenia and those dealing with today's mental health landscape.
As a mother, finding your footing on the slippery slope of self-care and setting achievable expectations sometimes seems like a herculean task. Our discussion wades through the daily grind, balancing parenting with the necessary acts of self-preservation. From examining the cultural shackles that link a woman's worth to her household's tidiness, to the transformative realization that self-care is not selfishness, we uncover strategies to reclaim your sense of self. We lean into acceptance, lean away from guilt, and celebrate the small triumphs that redefine our parenting journey.
Ending on a note of profound gratitude, this episode encapsulates not just the trials and tribulations of motherhood, but the transcendent beauty of connection and support within our community. Gayane's insights, coupled with our shared experiences, underscore the significance of creating spaces for candid discussions on parenting. We leave you with a heart full of empathy, a mind brimming with actionable advice, and the assurance that in the realm of motherhood, you are never sailing alone.
Navigating the tumultuous journey of motherhood is akin to steering through a storm with an ever-shifting horizon. In our latest stirring conversation, we have the privilege of hosting Gayane Aramyan, a licensed marriage and family therapist whose expertise and personal battles with postpartum depression offer a beacon of hope. She unveils the raw complexities of motherhood, addressing the guilt, societal pressures, and the unspoken challenges of seeking help during the postpartum period. Together, we unpack the layers of resilience exhibited by mothers across generations, drawing heartfelt parallels between women in post-Soviet Armenia and those dealing with today's mental health landscape.
As a mother, finding your footing on the slippery slope of self-care and setting achievable expectations sometimes seems like a herculean task. Our discussion wades through the daily grind, balancing parenting with the necessary acts of self-preservation. From examining the cultural shackles that link a woman's worth to her household's tidiness, to the transformative realization that self-care is not selfishness, we uncover strategies to reclaim your sense of self. We lean into acceptance, lean away from guilt, and celebrate the small triumphs that redefine our parenting journey.
Ending on a note of profound gratitude, this episode encapsulates not just the trials and tribulations of motherhood, but the transcendent beauty of connection and support within our community. Gayane's insights, coupled with our shared experiences, underscore the significance of creating spaces for candid discussions on parenting. We leave you with a heart full of empathy, a mind brimming with actionable advice, and the assurance that in the realm of motherhood, you are never sailing alone.
There was a study that said that specifically women who don't prioritize themselves and they have this type of personality will get arthritis later in life.
Speaker 2:Everybody deserves the sympathy and empathy, but there has to be a point in your life where you just have to get these two arms, put it on your knees and push yourself up.
Speaker 1:What I often see with clients is they go from this place of never asking for help, and then they go to the extreme and they're like, well, I don't care what anybody feels, then I'm going to ask for help. I'm like, ok, no, we need to find the balance.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. I love you. I need help. Those really bad, especially for new moms.
Speaker 1:They'll see a celebrity or an influencer just gave birth and she's already out and about. And they're like why am I not out and about? And so a lot of comparison comes from that.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, thank you for joining me on today's episode. Today's episode was pretty intense. We talked about everything mother-related, postpartum-related. Who am I talking about? Who did I talk to? Her name is Gayane Aramian. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She has her own practice. She works with mothers who have experienced postpartum depression. She loves everything involved in motherhood.
Speaker 2:Our conversations were around guilt. Our conversations were about postpartum depression. It was around change.
Speaker 2:She was a really interesting therapist to have on the show because she said some pretty meaningful coping mechanisms like having your own cup and what that relies and what it's about. It was interesting to hear her talk about where postpartum stems from. Why are we having a hard time saying no and asking for help? Mainly, it was interesting. She had a lot of research to back a lot of the things up that she's talking about. We talked about some books. She's definitely somebody that's going to be on again, because I genuinely do want to dive in about depression and guilt and talk more intense about these topics, but I think you guys are really going to enjoy this conversation.
Speaker 2:One other important topic we delved into is why is it that mothers have a difficult time doing things for themselves? Why is it hard for us to take care of ourselves? Why do we always compare ourselves to influencers and so on, and why are we so neglectful of our physical appearance, of our health and so on? So I think this is one of the episodes where you guys are going to definitely feel connected and hopefully find some tips to help the struggles that you're in as a mom. So stay tuned with this episode with Gayane Aramyan. Thank you, gayane. Hi, hi, it's nice to have you on.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much Of course, Thank you for joining us today. You guys, we're going to talk about everything postpartum related, mom related, because I think that's where your specialty is right Can you kind, of that's where your specialty is right.
Speaker 1:Can you kind of share with us how you?
Speaker 2:got into this postpartum. It's very rare and unique, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I've been in the field since I was 18 years old, so it's been about 13 years. I got started out as an anger management facilitator, working for my mentor, anita, and I kind of grew up under her wing. I just started there while I went to graduate school undergrad graduate school and I was doing that work, which was very interesting and also taught me a lot. I think I was working with a lot of men, a lot of angry men. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, majority of it was men.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean not to generalize, but really that's what I saw in my groups and so kind of working with that population from a young age also taught me a lot. And then, as I got married, I was very interested into like couples and relationships. So that was my passion, very interested into like couples and relationships. So that was my passion. And I worked with a lot of young as I transitioned from anger management to being licensed. I worked with a lot of women and so I was like, ok, I think this is what I like, and so women and couples.
Speaker 1:And then when I became a mom, I was like, huh, okay, I think this is my calling, and it's because I struggled so much in the postpartum period and so that struggle taught me that there was a lot that I didn't know about, even though I was in the field. I had never known anything about postpartum depression. I mean I've heard it, obviously, and I've learned it in school, but not to the extent of the intrusive thoughts I had and just the lack of support, the emotional lack of support. I mean there was just so much. And so once I got through it I got, you know, I worked with my own therapist to really process my own stuff. And then I got training in perinatal mental health and from then on on I've been just working with moms. I still love working with couples, but motherhood has been my, like absolute passion.
Speaker 2:So basically, you've had postpartum you were you diagnosed with postpartum depression. I mean, it's a little personal, but yeah, no, I, I.
Speaker 1:I think that you know, with us being a therapist, it's not so much of like okay, so you have postpartum depression. It's more of like my therapist and I were just working on the symptoms that were happening. I'll mention this because this is something I tell my clients now to check for. But at six months after I stopped breastfeeding, I realized I got even more depressed and that was strange because, like I thought, you know, finishing breastfeeding it will be a new journey. And he was a little bit older and I was going to get back to work and something was off.
Speaker 1:So I got my blood work done and I ended up having a hypothyroid and so my thyroid it was almost not functioning and it was so and I think it was my therapist that said go get your blood work checked. And when I went by my OBGYN she was like what are you checking it for? Kind of downplayed it, and I was like I don't feel okay, like I should be a little bit better, and she was like you're a new mom, it's normal. Calls me a week later saying, yeah, your thyroid's like almost non-functioning.
Speaker 2:Non-existent. Yeah, you know, I have the same issue too. Really, was yours related to birth?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, after my second, it just hit me Like it was non-existent. I was like so mentally, physically exhausted, yeah sad, yeah anxious, like what's going on, and then I'm like I need a blood work.
Speaker 1:And then you know, sure, surprise, surprise. But you know how many people don't know to get their blood checked.
Speaker 2:I think it's really important for a professional to kind of also be educated in in this aspect because so many women are lacking. Oh yeah, like thyroid is so common now, whether it's hyper, hypo, it's, it's so it's literally like every other woman. Yeah that I'm talking to has it, I'm not joking, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's. It's like one of the first things I want to rule out when I'm working with someone in therapy is, like have you gone your blood work check? I know there's no time, but can we make it happen? Sometimes I'm a little too pushy, but I really want that to be ruled out because it's a big part of how it impacts the emotions, women, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So you went through postpartum. Tell us a little bit about. How was that healing journey for?
Speaker 1:you.
Speaker 2:Was that challenging?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think having a strong foundation of your relationship, support like the physical support around that, was very important and I don't know if I didn't have that, if it would have been more difficult. I think once I was put on the thyroid medication, once I kind of did my own work through my own therapy, I definitely saw the light of things getting better and I went back to work around six months. So I was a little bit crazy and I studied for my board exam in those first six months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how was that Horrible. I don't recommend it either. Get it done before or do it after the first year or something. Um, yes, you're so courageous. Thank you, powerful. I don't recommend it. No, no, I don't want that to be like. Was it a pressure? I'm sure, honestly, it was my own clock, like I finished my hours uh right when I was on maternity leave and it felt so good to like turn that in, yeah, and then I was like I want, I want to go back to work as a licensed therapist, like I just wanted that.
Speaker 1:it was a goal. It was a goal. But now, looking back, I wish people supported me, and I'm sure even my therapist, I'm sure my husband were like, hey, take it easy, like you don't have to do this now. But I don't think I heard them and so, yeah, I don't want this to be like, oh my God, great job you. It's like we don't have to do that. You know we don't have to do it all. I'm glad I did it, of course, but I wish I was more easier.
Speaker 2:What made you not be so easy on yourself?
Speaker 1:I don't know the goal of just being licensed and having that accomplishment and I think, looking back, I didn't want having a baby derailed me from that, because we hear that so often, right, we do, yeah. So I think that's a big thing and I was like, nope, I'm going to get it done. And I did.
Speaker 2:So as a postpartum therapist oh, just a therapist in general I know that you don't specifically you can heal and, you know, talk to anybody with all sorts of like you know emotional dilemmas. But, as as a woman who's working with women who have postpartum, have the postpartum rates increased significantly since I don't know, the last 10 years? What do you think?
Speaker 1:I think more people are becoming aware and more information is being. You know, even though no one is getting these like classes, that's my goal is to get some sort of education going when you're pregnant. I'm very passionate about absolutely because I think shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think like we, you know, when you're pregnant, all you think about is sleep training maybe, maybe breastfeeding or cpr classes, birthing classes, but there isn't anything. There is, of course there are courses, but like no one puts the importance on the emotional well-being. Or like here are some tools on how you can talk to your husband whenever you're in the thick of it.
Speaker 2:That would be nice what do you think women need to learn more? Pregnant women or women who are thinking of having babies?
Speaker 1:What's an essential you know, I think in any just being a woman. This is a struggle, but I think especially in our culture, asking for help is such a quality.
Speaker 2:It's so simple, but it's so hard, if that makes sense. Simple, yet difficult to execute. Asking for help is probably I'm sorry, I love you, I need help. Those words are so difficult for people to articulate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So what are your thoughts about this? Why are women having such a difficult time articulating that they need help?
Speaker 1:I think that, especially if we look at our community and our culture, it goes back to us seeing our moms be the strong, like woman, who did it all, who hosted, who cooked, who raised us. They gave us the world's attention, like I always say, my mom's love and attention for me like it was everything. My dad too, but he was the provider. He wasn't home and I never felt his absence because she gave so much, and so I think that kind of dedication and you know she didn't work, so she took me to all the activities she did all of that and I think growing up and seeing that it almost makes you understand that like the self doesn't matter, it's all about giving and making sure your family is provided for in the love, affection, cooking, cleaning, all those things.
Speaker 1:So then we have this new generation. That's like seeing all these things, probably online, of like ask for help and you're like, how do I ask for help? My mom did it, so maybe I should do it. And then you add, just outside of our culture, like the world we live in, and you see now women are working and now they have these goals and they're independent. So then you have literally a storm of trying to do it all. You want to be this Armenian woman who cooks and cleans and hosts and does all the things and gives the love to her kids. But you also want to have a career and you want to be independent.
Speaker 2:And that's, I don't know, it's so much Forgive me for saying this, but I don't think that those two are possible together.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I think that there needs to. You know, we always throw out the word balance and I've heard so many people use find your balance, find your balance. I think that that balance puts a lot of unrealistic expectation on women, Because when I'm genuinely listening to you talk, you talk about how you were studying for your because it's not a job being a therapist, it's a career you were talking about, you know, working on your career while trying to be a mom. Yeah, and that it's hard, it's difficult. So I don't know that's my opinion Do you feel that moms can have a career and do a great job being a mom at the same time?
Speaker 1:As long as the pressure isn't, I have to do it all then yes, can you explain about that? Yeah, for me, like my personal philosophies, I don't want to be perfect. I don't want perfection, exactly.
Speaker 2:I'm going to mess up.
Speaker 1:You know I'm going to. Maybe one day I'm not paying attention to my husband, maybe the next day I'm not paying attention to my husband, maybe the next day I am, and maybe the next day I go out with girlfriends and have someone else watch my son and I don't give him that attention. And then maybe one day I take off work and I'm not giving my work like I can't every single day wear all the hats at all times.
Speaker 2:That's hard. Yeah, bre breaks you down Totally.
Speaker 2:Here's my thing, though I I always look back, because I was born in Armenia and I was born during the Soviet times and you know, around 1994, 1995, those were the difficult years where we didn't have light, we didn't have food and you know it was hard. But I was watching my mom and I'm like, wow, like this woman, she does everything and she leaves us at home, goes in line for like hours and hours for a piece of bread. Yeah, but within that time frame women did have children. Why? And when you do talk to those women they say things like what's a postpartum? I never experienced this. I'm serious.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like you guys are. Just you know, and they say this term like that term, like you know, the kids here or the adults here, you guys are all victims. You're weak, your generation's weaker. We had the most and it's right.
Speaker 2:They had it worse than us. There's no doubt about that. Why do you think that they're so much more resilient? I'm sure they had hormonal issues there, I'm sure. In fact, I don't even think that they had any help back in the day. I know my mom didn't, but why is it? They don't experience postpartum depression, but the rates are incredibly high, and we do, because I experienced it too. Yeah, what do you? There's a big gap there and I'm always processing that. What do you think is how are these women doing now? Not so good, yeah, not so good. Yeah, they're sad, disheveled, right, tremendously. Yeah, that's tremendous, I think they've definitely felt it.
Speaker 1:I don't think they had the words to describe. I don't think they had the openness and the safety to express those feelings. So I think it's always been there. I just don't think they could express it the way we can express it now. There was no help, so you feel it Even now. By the way, a lot of women, like even I, experienced that. I remember very vividly the first few weeks I was holding my son and then I got an intrusive thought what if I drop him? And I, like would picture dropping him, like oh my God, that's so scary, why am I having this thought? And I, like would picture dropping him, like oh my God, that's so scary, why am I having this thought? And I remember talking to my therapist about it and she normalized it, gave me space to express it and I learned that this is something that moms experience.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I'm a therapist, like I'm in the field. Okay. So imagine then so they all probably felt and thought, but they maybe blocked it out. I think a lot of it is blocking it out. The trauma of it probably Does that come back to bite you.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, that's why my question was how are they doing now?
Speaker 1:Because it's not processed. You know again, their whole lives they've spent on taking care of everybody else giving, giving and giving And've spent on taking care of everybody else giving, giving and giving. And how can you pour from an empty cup? And I wonder what it would have been like if someone said, hey mom, what do you need? Like maybe you need something for yourself.
Speaker 2:I think there's such a big shame factor that goes into that For some reason it's women are so afraid to ask for help yeah. You know how can we normalize that? By just doing.
Speaker 1:Just asking Risk, it's a risk, it is a risk.
Speaker 2:You know I mean. Nobody wants to get rejected.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I think ultimately I know for me first of all, I don't ask for help that much because I know I do a better execution at what I'm gonna do whether it's like laundry, yeah, but that's a, that's the.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying you're the problem, but that's everybody's problem. It's the thing, and that I can better, so it's fine, I'll figure it out.
Speaker 2:And then continue doing it until you hit that stage where you're just like mentally drained. Yeah, I quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you delegate you from little things you get comfortable with. You know, especially for new moms, a lot of my clients deal with this of you know. If it's bedtime or bath time, well, I do a better job. My husband doesn't know how to. And you know this leads to the husband, the dad, feeling left out because they want to help. I mean, you know, if you're in a healthy, good relationship with the partner who's present and they want to help, the mom says I got it, I'm going to figure it out myself. And she unintentionally pushes him out. Then he doesn't know how to fit in, then he stops asking how you need help.
Speaker 2:Can you guide the mother? First of all, beautifully said. I appreciate you saying that because I hear it so much that I do a better job. He doesn't know it's hard for him. He can't put the kids to sleep or he can't vacuum that well, what advice would you give moms that really do have a hard time giving that responsibility to maybe a mother-in-law, maybe a mom or a husband?
Speaker 1:Just, literally do it. The more you get yourself comfortable with that discomfort, the more you'll be able to do it yourself. Comfortable with that discomfort, the more you'll be able to do it.
Speaker 1:It's that, this initial discomfort, that keeps you from even trying the control. And again you have to ask yourself what are you missing out on, like if help is available and your husband or your mother-in-law or anybody is there and saying how can I help? Or you're, maybe you have cleaners who come, but you're still cleaning up, like no, no, you triggered me, but it's where does it all come from?
Speaker 2:you didn't just wake up? Yeah, my mom, yeah, it comes, it's monkey.
Speaker 1:See, monkey, do again like mirror neurons, like totally and I don't, by the way, when I talk about parents like they did the best they could yes, they did with the information they had and, god knows, our kids are gonna say things in the future about us that we're gonna mess up on. That's part of life, but a lot of the I think our generation has it pretty hard actually, because we're in that middle of trying to break the generational cycle.
Speaker 2:Do you think our generation has it harder than our parents? You?
Speaker 1:know they had it hard in different ways, but the fact that we have our phones at the tip of our hands, it's a blessing and a curse the information that we're constantly exposed to.
Speaker 1:I think, to the mental state. Maybe that's why there was resilience there in some way, because they didn't have to be exposed to information that we have access to, like something happens across the world, we know it in seconds, they didn't know it in seconds. We process it like instantaneously and we don't process it. We're just. We get that wave of fear and anger and whatever, like all the feelings all at once.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to motherhood too, I think that information is also a very scary factor in how moms are dealing with things and it increases, you know, depression and anxiety. It's a factor. It's not the only reason. But when you have so many different ways to feed your baby, so many different ways to feed your baby, so many different ways to put your baby to sleep, it's a lot right. And so moms get really anxious over that. Because then you ask the older generation. They're like well, we just, you know, we put you to sleep on your, on your tummy, and you're like wait, like we can't do that anymore, mom, yeah, so it's so different now yeah, there's definitely a lot of anxiety around being a mom nowadays and you're right, there's a lot of information.
Speaker 2:You can't put them this way, you can't feed them. This, the soil does this, this formula does that. Yeah, you're just constantly researching and researching and and it's difficult, you get so overwhelmed. Yeah, so there's a lot of moms who genuinely they have like two, three kids with no help and a very absent father. What do you think those moms can do? Because you know, I've seen a few that are very overwhelmed and just tired and also severe anger comes with that. Yeah, resentment.
Speaker 2:Resentment at the world friends, maybe family Then they take all that anger out on their children. If they don't have help, what can they do for themselves? What do you think would be good coping mechanism for moms like that?
Speaker 1:Well, of course I'm biased and the first thing I'm going to say is therapy if it's possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you can fit it into your schedule in any way, and if you can't, I would start with journaling, possibly like having some space for your feelings, your thoughts, to be able to write those out and just sit with it and reflect on that. Having maybe a friend that can be supportive, you know, finding a friend and really looking at your day and seeing how you can simplify it, like, do you have a lot of pressure on yourself to be this? You know again the perfect mom who's doing it all this? You know again the perfect mom who's doing it all. Can you, you know, cut back in some things and maybe focus on doing a five minute? I don't know if you're into meditating, meditation or just five minutes to yourself, in whatever way that looks like.
Speaker 1:I really think about editing, like that's the word that comes to mind like looking at your day and just editing what doesn't work and what works for you and adding in something that might fulfill you maybe you get out and go to the park with the kids, um, that's, that's what's coming to mind is kind of like looking at what the current situation is like and what you can do to shift some things.
Speaker 2:What about accept? Do you feel like acceptance is key, because when there are mothers who are faced with challenges of having maybe two, three kids, no help, not a present dad? Do you think that accepting that they're in a very it's the lack of better?
Speaker 2:shitty, I would say but it's the lack of better word situation. And do you feel like acceptance is important? Because sometimes I feel like other approaches might be a way of not really accepting what's happening and maybe running from what's really going on. But I don't know for me. I feel like the more I accept what's going on in that moment helps me figure out a way better. All right, Well, I've got two kids. I have no help. It's really horrible. My house is a mess. I haven't brushed my teeth all day. Yeah, I'm just. You know, it is what it is right now. Okay, what's the first thing I can do for myself? Right? What's the question I'm asking? Yeah, Is acceptance important when we're faced with difficult situations?
Speaker 1:I think maybe editing, then acceptance, like doing what you can to shift some things, and that may be, you know, if the relationship, the marriage you're in like, is it serving you any good? If there is absence, Is it like? I have so many questions I can't just give you a blank answer you know.
Speaker 1:So it's like evaluating what's changeable and then absolutely, I think, accepting like I think I've used that even in my own life, through motherhood of before my son started school at two. I just knew I wasn't in the phase of like going to the gym wasn't a priority, I couldn't, I didn't have the time. Just doing certain things for me wasn't going to happen during this time. And I knew and I accepted that and I said, ok, once you start school I'm going to introduce these parts of self-care, and I did, and so it helped get through that phase. So I think acceptance is a huge part, but I think we don't often look at the current situation and evaluate what's serving a purpose, what's not. Can I be okay with a mess? Right, because I think a lot of moms struggle with that and keeping things perfect, do you?
Speaker 2:have a lot of moms that struggle with the mess Absolutely. What advice do you give moms that are like oh, I just want a better clean house, but I can't yeah?
Speaker 1:Listen, I am very organized. Like the way my anxiety shows up in my life, it's by keeping me organized on time. It's it serves a purpose. It does, yeah, but if the, if the actions are becoming harmful to me, meaning like if, um, all I keep thinking about is the mess. Like, first of all, my son is three and a half. Okay, if I put that box of like box of legos back in its place, in 30 minutes it'll be out again.
Speaker 1:But there are moms who constantly put it back, put, put it into place so it can be clean, and they struggle with that. And so I think, when you get to, and then you're exhausted at the end of the day, of course. So I've created some boundaries. Like, after I put him to sleep, my husband and I make dinner, we eat together, we watch a show, and I don't do like maybe I'll throw in a laundry a load of laundry, of laundry. For me, housework doesn't happen during that time. Yes, I have a flexible schedule with work and I can do that, you know, while he's at school if it's not a work day, but I've created that life to be able to do things like that. So then he's when he goes to sleep. I'm not going to be staying up and cleaning up and doing all those things Like sure, clean up the kitchen. So I think, as long as it's not crossing the line of now, you're exhausted because of it.
Speaker 2:And you don't have time to nurture your children. Yes, because of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tidy space. Of course, that brings anybody like good feelings and it's good for your mental health to have that. But if you're constantly chasing this like you're in a hamster wheel, you have to prioritize, like, okay, this is what's going to get done today and it's okay if I don't put this load of laundry tonight. It's that okay piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like how do you get and yes, yes, it's that okay piece, it's okay if I don't do it now it's okay, but how do we get women to get to that okay stage like? Help me understand that. Yeah, I want to genuinely understand. How do you get women I mean, I'm sure with practice it's not instant right you guys, I don't think. I don't want people to feel like, oh my god, like it's, yeah, but do you feel like it's the help of the therapist?
Speaker 1:that guides you there, or totally. I mean that's something I work on with my clients of like letting go of these expectations, like where are these expectations coming from in the first place? You know, oftentimes I'll get clients, you know I'll be like, you know, I'll just ask, is it your husband? And they'll be like no, he really doesn't even care. So where's this expectation? So we kind of look into where that even comes from. Oftentimes moms are putting that on themselves, you know, and they don't have to.
Speaker 2:I think it's just from what I've kind of learned and seen. It's so much easier to clean what's around you because the mess you have deep inside yourself is so big and it's so unorganized and it's so intricate to kind of get a hold of that. It's easier to put the cups away and to organize your shoe closet versus whatever is happening inside, Totally I mean cleaning excessive cleaning can be a sign of trauma too right Of past trauma because you're trying to clean up the mess yeah, but
Speaker 1:that can, of course, be a symptom of that. But you know, I'll also get clients who can say, who'll say, I can hire the help, I can have a nanny. I can have uh, house cleaners who come often like, let's say, you know their husband, if he's the provider, he'll be like I'll do it, let's do it, he's on board and they have a hard time accepting it. Then what am I here for? Especially if they're not working outside of the house? They'll be like then what's my purpose? I'm like take the help, I'm always like take the help, you know, and we go interesting though, yeah, like the help women.
Speaker 2:You said something so powerful, though why do women associate purpose with?
Speaker 1:chores, yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's a bigger issue of society and, you know, going back to generations, I think lines are a little bit blurry now.
Speaker 1:It used to be clear before, right, like the guy made the money, he was a provider and the wife was home with the kids doing the house stuff, made the money, he was a provider and the wife was home with the kids doing the house stuff. Now I think things are very blurry because also we have dads that want to participate in the they do raising of their kids, which I love, yes, and they even help out at home, um, and then you have moms now who work also. So a lot of things are kind of getting blurry and I think that's a hard part for moms to understand that we live in just a very different world now. And it's okay to ask your husband to help out with laundry, it's okay to ask somebody else if you're going to hire someone, like it's okay to ask for help. And the sooner we we accept that, I think, the happier lives moms will have do you get of moms who compare themselves a lot to?
Speaker 2:yeah, social media, yes. Is that hurting them?
Speaker 1:of course, yeah, I think that again, going back to like it's a blessing and a curse to have social media. I've learned so much about parenting from social media, you know, like I've been exposed to so many great I mean I met you on Instagram like so much good comes from it. Yes, it does, but the bad parts are really bad, and especially for new moms. You know they'll see a celebrity or an influencer just gave birth and she's already out and about, and they're like why am I not out and about? Why can't I, you know, be put together? And so a lot of comparison comes from that.
Speaker 2:Comparison comes from that. But I also think that women sometimes will utilize look, let's go back. This comment is not to make everybody anybody feel uncomfortable or bad. Everybody's responsible for their own actions. Yeah, certainly I am. But I'll say something. I don't think that women do a very fair job portraying difficulty on social media.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so you'll have an influencer who looks fabulous when she's shooting herself right Like oh here's, I'm going to shoot this, you know real or whatever, and she'll look wonderful and that's beautiful. But I don't think that, and I'm going to include myself. I don't think that we are doing the right thing. We're not being fair. I think that it's important to sometimes portray and execute and allow people to see that ugly side. So I certainly have a big responsibility. I don't by all means call myself an influencer, but I do feel like I have a responsibility to share some struggles also not just a pretty picture.
Speaker 2:Do you think that's fair? Do you feel that we're doing a pretty stinky job, kind of portraying that other side and these younger generations looking at us and saying, well, it's kind of like the same thing as our moms did. They're doing it, everything is perfect. But now that they're older, you see all kinds of cancer creeping up, depression creeping up. We're doing the same thing. Yeah, what makes it? What makes a difference?
Speaker 1:I mean, I have a few thoughts on this.
Speaker 2:One is.
Speaker 1:I absolutely agree and I struggle myself to keep it real on my professional page and show the the hard parts of motherhood. And the reality is I'm not going to video my son having a tantrum you know, I do absolutely. Or post that or post it. I might video but I won't post that and expose him, but that's you know that's where I come in with the.
Speaker 2:Why not? Because four other moms just went through a nervous breakdown, probably, and they're gonna look at you and just, for example, yeah, oh, my god guy, and just she just posted something on her story saying man, this was hard. Yeah, I feel bad. It's shouldn't friday. That's the part.
Speaker 1:I'll talk, like I'll talk about it. You know, oh my god, this morning, like it was such a yes, you know it was so bad, but, um, I think what's helpful is to think that Instagram is a highlight reel. It's kind of what I compare it to. It's kind of like looking at a photo album. When you look at a photo album, you're not seeing the hard parts of your story, they're just highlights, and I kind of feel like that's what I mean. It started out as like a picture you would only put pictures, and that's what it?
Speaker 1:is and I think it's. And then there's another part of when I have talked about the hardships, I do get a few people being like, oh, you're complaining about motherhood and you're ashamed, you're shamed.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So it's like as a, as a creator in this space, as a professional, I mean, my goal is to normalize the hardships in motherhood, and so it's a constant struggle, but I think that we are not in charge of how other people feel, and so what we can all do as viewers is accept the fact that Instagram is not reality, and I'm seeing a thread that I need to hop onto of people posting that and saying Instagram is not real, and then they post like struggles they're having, it's like a new thing people are doing.
Speaker 2:But that's beautiful. Yeah, totally, because to some it is reality. Yeah, like they're so into it. Yeah, I mean, let's be real, it's everyone's reality now. What do you do when you wake up? Early in the morning you don't do a deep breath and meditate or pray we can definitely change that, and it starts from the space of not having your stuff together, you know, and just I think that I don't know. I feel like we need to do a better job at portraying that ugly side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and look in my own work as a therapist. I'm not a blank slate therapist. I'm very especially with my mom's therapist when it's appropriate. I share that. I struggle, you know. I'll be like, yeah, and most it's interesting Most of my clients also have the same age kids and so I have to really like do my own work and work on myself. So I'm not just talking about me the whole time, but I'll say something like, oh, I get it. Yes, like let's say, you know they're going through a parent preference, I'll be like I get it. You know my son went through that and you know this is what it felt like.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful though it's so relatable or the tantrums and I'll check in with them. I'll be like you. Let me know if you like sharing. When I share things, and they'll always say it makes me feel like you're human too. Oh, you're human too. Oh, wow, yeah.
Speaker 2:and it makes me feel like, oh, if you don't have it figured out, then it's okay for me to not have it figured out. I'm like perfect, that's what I want. Yeah, if you're struggling, then my goodness, that's okay. Yeah, like, where have we come to?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, but it's because struggle wasn't shown in the way it is now. Um, I don't think we were raised to feel to be comfortable with discomfort, yeah, so we're very uncomfortable with discomfort now, and so I think changing that is a really hard job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, To change that you have to go back in time and change a lot of the generational gaps, I mean or to start being comfortable with discomfort.
Speaker 1:Now, like you know, going back to the question of how do we ask for help, it's asking the question and then sitting with the discomfort of you might be rejected what can we do?
Speaker 2:um, hold on moms that feel like they're asking for help and they feel like a burden. Yeah, that comes up a lot, like oh, I feel bad for my mom, I feel bad for my dad, I feel bad for my mother-in-law Like, how can we normalize that? I guess what I'm talking about is maybe guilt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was thinking, yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah, for the guilt. Like, how do you work on guilt for all, for all the moms that are kind of watching?
Speaker 1:this. That's a big one, kayan. Help us with the guilt. Look one normalizing that. We all experience guilt. Okay, I experience guilt.
Speaker 2:Do you experience guilt Absolutely?
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. I have worked through therapy to be at a place where and this is the goal of working through it is and I try to help my clients get to a place where and this is the goal of working through it is and I try to help my clients get to a place where you feel the guilt. Okay, you, you're good, we can't delete it out of our system.
Speaker 2:Such an unnecessary feeling, but it is what it is, but no, sometimes it's necessary.
Speaker 1:I think that's what makes us like empathic, and you know.
Speaker 1:I think I would be concerned if we didn't feel guilt. True might be scary, yes, um, so it's again. It's looking at the feeling as like that's a part of me and it's about experiencing it and not letting it prevent me from doing what makes me happy. So, for example, you know you're asking for help, maybe it's to go out with your husband. You haven't been out in a while and you're asking a family member for help and it's about, let's say, the feeling comes up and you feel it and you go okay, I'm feeling the guilt. Let me ask, let's say, my mom if she's okay with watching and trusting that she's an adult who can say no if it doesn't work for her.
Speaker 1:Spoiler alert most Armenian moms don't say no. They don't know how to say no if it doesn't work for her. Uh, spoiler alert most Armenian moms don't say no. They don't know how to say no. Um, but that's not our problem, like they need to, and I always tell my mom and my mother-in-law they never say no and we're so blessed with that. But I can, like see them be busy or they're tired. I'm like I need you to just say no to me. I'll be okay, I'll figure it out. But if you can't say no and they're working through it. You know they're trying, but it's like trusting that that's a grown adult who is able to say no. You know they can say no if it really doesn't work for them. And trusting that, what about?
Speaker 2:the women who are probably commenting in their mind, right now okay, well, she's right, okay, she can say no. But what if my mom's not the type to say no?
Speaker 1:yeah, which is that's what I'm saying, like we all right, but it's having communication like hey, mom, I know you get tired, I know sometimes you're busy. Things come up can you please try to work on saying no to me, I'll be okay, I'll figure it out. Like, have that communication. Yeah. So they also because, listen, they grew up not being able to say no. That's the generational trauma we're all trying to break. They grew up saying yes to everybody and doing everything for everybody else, so it's kind of like you're also healing them in the process of teaching them how to say no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that's so meaningful, Gayan. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:And I think what happens. What I often see with clients is they go from this place of never asking for help and then they go to the extreme and they're like, well, I don't care what anybody feels. Then I'm going to ask for help. I'm like, ok, no, no, we need to find the balance. You're still gonna be considerate of the people around, but you're not gonna let the guilt take the driver's seat and just take you off and not let you enjoy life and do things for yourself and take care of yourself.
Speaker 2:Like enjoy life with the guilt yeah, yeah, I mean honestly it is. It's like a jewelry, yeah, like just honestly, does that ever go away? I don't know, probably to people who are not, that you know, mindful of others, but I know that I'm gonna carry mine with me forever because I always feel guilty asking for help, so yeah, it's like what you know, you gotta work to work around it, but it's so it's so freeing when you get to the other side and if you have, yeah Are you free from that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel it. I feel it. Listen, it's there.
Speaker 2:Tell me how you did that.
Speaker 1:So I, I, I feel it. But I'm able to have these open conversations, let's say with my husband, right, like he's staying in so I can go out. Gail says to me oh, how can you go out? Let him go out Like, let him enjoy, why should you go out? And it does all that talking. And then I notice it and I say, okay, guilt, I hear you, you're present, you're like making yourself acknowledge the feeling and then maybe I'll check in with him. Hey, babe, I'm going to go out tonight. Does that still work with your schedule?
Speaker 1:And again, we've had communication, open communication to for me to trust him that when he says he's available he's not going to later bring it up and say, well, you did this and you know we have that trust. And if he's not OK with it, he has to tell me no, it doesn't work with my schedule, I have work stuff. Can you actually schedule a different night? Like? You have to create that communication line.
Speaker 1:And again, with family members it's maybe a little bit harder, especially if they're older and the generation before it's different. But you just start saying like hey, mom, please let me know if it doesn't work for you different. But you just start saying like hey, mom, please let me know if it doesn't work for you. You are not responsible for controlling and managing their discomfort or their feelings or their like ability to do something, and I think the sooner you create the distance of my mom will tell me and I'll just keep saying, oh, every other day, hey, mom, like let me know if it doesn't work, yeah, what comes up as I say that, because I, you're like I'm processing so much because it's guilt is such a heavy topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just. It's an icky topic because there's no way around it it's like as a human being, as a mom since we're on the mom topic you just, you can never get away from it, and I want to make this guilt conversation something that everybody connects to, because this comes up so much okay and talk about. Sorry to interrupt you talk about what?
Speaker 1:it what it keeps you away from doing Living, yeah, outside of your mom hat right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Like you know, I was a little girl first, Then I was a teenager and then I was a woman. Way before I was someone's wife and then someone's mother. So I think sometimes we forget that. You know, we were kids first too.
Speaker 1:We, we have a right yeah, um, and to say also yes, um. What are we teaching our kids? The same thing we saw like do we want them to be in a relationship where they don't take care of themselves?
Speaker 2:no, and they don't ask, especially having a, a daughter.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, absolutely not. There's this other piece too, though. I feel like when we do things for ourselves, we feel guilty. When you're going on an eyebrow appointment, you're like, oh, I don't want to get away from home, I feel badly. And then you have like this sick attachment to your kid. When you're like, oh my God, I can't wait to see them and I think obviously a lot of women relate to this, because you guys all talk about it all the time Is that the same guilt?
Speaker 2:Is that something we also need to kind of sit with and acknowledge Like, okay, we're going to get our nails done, we're having a self-care day. We feel guilty for doing that because we clearly something's happening inside where we feel like we don't need to do that we don't deserve it.
Speaker 1:We don't deserve that yeah, why do we? Have these feelings going back to. What do we see our moms do? Do we ever see them prioritize themselves first? I, I don't, I don't think I don't. I've never like my memories yeah, my memories are of my mom taking me to activities and taking care of us right taking care of us, like being a present mom in that way, but I don't, I don't remember her.
Speaker 1:or telling me like, oh, you know, I have to do this for myself, and so that's why we struggle is because it was a model for us. And then at the societal piece of doing it all, and then you're like, ok, well, I can't do it all, so I'm just going to wear this mom hat forever and just do this, which is the most amazing, wonderful, I mean god, unless you're in it, you truly I can't describe what motherhood is. It's like the good. Imagine not having your son.
Speaker 1:I cannot, I cannot, I can cry I can probably go into straight tears right now if I talk too much about it, because the joy, the love, um, it's. You can't describe that it truly is. But at the same time, at the same time, are you okay? Yeah, I mean, listen, it's the hardest job in the world. So when I say, say you wear your mom hat, and that's it, no, it's not, that's it, it's like it's the hardest job in the world. So when I say you wear your mom hat and that's it, no, it's not, that's it, it's like it's the hardest job in the world. But I think you matter too, like I matter. And so in my personal life I try to make that clear to my son and he knows like he is my world.
Speaker 1:We say to each other every morning you're my like like all the things, and at the same time I'll tell him I'm going out to dinner with my friends and he'll be like your friends, you're going to a restaurant.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, I'm going to a restaurant and I'll see you in the morning and the same with um date night.
Speaker 1:If I go out with my husband, I'm starting to tell him I don't want to lie, no, I don't want to like. He needs to know that life exists outside of mom.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, outside of mom, outside of him, like we love you so much and we have this secure relationship, but also and even for work, like right now. He you know my he was with my husband earlier. They came home and they went to a car wash and they did their thing and I hadn't seen him all morning. So guilt said, oh, you weren't with him all morning and now you're going to this work thing again. I acknowledged it and I said I'll be with him after. I'm doing this for me, I'm doing this for my career that I'm so passionate about. And I hugged him. I said mama's going. He said why are you wearing those shoes to me? Why, I don't know, it's a heel. He's like yeah, and anytime.
Speaker 2:I wear makeup heels.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's different. And he's like why are you wearing those shoes and what did you do with your face? I'm like I got dressed up, I'm going to work and I'm going to do something for me, just so he sees that that's important.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're modeling that behavior. I hope so. I hope so.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter if it's a boy, yeah boys also need to take care of themselves, but also so then he supports that in his partner right and his wife and says like I support you in that and thankfully you know, I'm very blessed, my husband is very supportive and he he is so OK with all of this. I think it's hard when you don't have that, when your partner is not on the same page. Yeah, there's a lot of women struggling with that yeah that's a hard part.
Speaker 1:And when even your family gives you a hard time, you know, again, it's a, it's a privilege to be in a situation where you can ask for help and someone doesn't say no, like how lucky am I, that that's my problem and that they don't use that against me. So there's a lot of toxic situations that unfortunately, I think are either happening later in life maybe you married someone. They don't know that's what it's going to be like, and then that's what's happening. And again, I think it's really re-evaluating, like what's important to you and how much is the current situation helping or hurting you, because a healthy relationship should be about that support. I really believe that I do too. Yeah, especially as a mom like you want to thrive even if you don't have a career, like to go get your nails done with a partner who says I got it, you go take care of you. Absolutely. Because as moms, what do we do? We sit home and we say we got this, you go take care of you and the husband works all day. Let's see if that's the case.
Speaker 2:It's just you know teaching them to put themselves first, like how you see in an. You know teaching them to put themselves first, like how you see in an airplane.
Speaker 2:You know what do they model that behavior where you know the oxygen mask falls, you don't put it on your kids first. Certainly you're not going to make it by the time you put that on your kids. You put it on yourself first and I I believe in eating first, I believe in drinking water first. You know, call me whatever you want to call me because of that, but I think that we're doing this horrible job. Labeling. Being a good mom is about feeding them, cleaning. I think that a good, a great mom is a mom who takes care of themselves. I don't think that a sick mom I mean that I don't think that a mentally sick, physically sick mom is going to do a good job being a mom, yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of research. I don't know if you've heard of Gabor Amate.
Speaker 2:Yes, His book Mis of Normal. I've read his book like 10 times already.
Speaker 1:It's a very thick book. I'm still in the middle of it.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, You're going to get addicted and go back to it all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've seen him speak in person and he I mean, he's brilliant and his whole thing is that basically not taking care of yourself and trauma and really not prioritizing yourself later leads to illnesses. Yes, it does, and it was interesting that there was a study that said that specifically women who don't prioritize themselves and they have this type of personality will get arthritis later in life. That's right. How many Armenian women do you know later in life that have it?
Speaker 2:Majority of them.
Speaker 1:Thyroid or arthritis, well, thyroid can lead to arthritis because it attacks everything. Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:All are hunched, you know they have severe bone pain and just inflammation. Absolutely Like you guys, please. I genuinely want to have people mothers understand that just by there's this term that's thrown around lately it's called being selfish I don't know if I like that term not so much, but self-love. Yeah, absolutely like prioritize. You were a little girl first, you were a young woman first. You guys, you were you. You were that woman first before you guys became moms and you know wives, so Fill your cup, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So how can we help mothers understand that taking care of themselves is being a good mom? Yeah, not the contrary of what this image that we have. Oh, she always has her hair done. Yeah, she looks fabulous.
Speaker 1:she's probably yeah, a bad mom neglecting her kids but it's like, yeah, oh why can't she do both?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, I really think about like ask reflective questions of how does your certain like current situation? How does that impact you? How happy are you with how things are? You know, if guilt is keeping you from doing things, is that serving you a purpose or is it keeping you from having your cup be fuller? And this is especially when help can be available, like when there is help, and the other thing is try it, try it and then tell me if it didn't work. Like try to say you know what, I'm gonna get a hair appointment, or I'm gonna go to that pilates class, or I'm gonna see that friend for lunch and just do it, or like I bet you, you know, guilt might actually make you feel bad about it. Yes, but.
Speaker 1:I bet you afterwards you're gonna be like, wow, and the weeks that my cup gets full and recently I've been seeing a lot of friends I haven't seen I can't tell you how fulfilled I feel like, how just like my cup is so and I show up differently as a parent. You know I lose it too as a mom. I have moments where I'm not patient and it's always when my cup is empty. Can?
Speaker 2:you tell us about your cup theory. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Please.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know if I I definitely I like saw it somewhere but I use it a lot.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah so.
Speaker 1:I think of the cup being empty is whenever we're pouring out all day long. We're giving to our kids, we're giving to our kids, we're giving to our career to our husband.
Speaker 1:We're just pouring all day long, and when that cup is empty, personally I'm on edge. I might not be as nice as I would like to be to my husband. I'm hungry, I'm hungry. Yes, I am not as patient with my son as I'd like to be. I'm just not my best self.
Speaker 1:And when we do little things and you know, sometimes people say, well, I went on that vacation and it's like OK, that's once a year, that is not going to fill you up all the time. It might fill you up a little, true, but then you're going to come back and the same things are happening. So I always look at it as like, what can I do today? And then what can I do in the week? That's going to fill me up. So can I schedule a dinner with a friend? Can I move my body some way somehow? Can I, you know, try to read every day? Like what's going to fill me up? And can I listen to a podcast on the way? Like that's going to fill me up. And that's something I can do daily, that can kind of give to me instead of taking from me. I did a Q&A and someone asked if organizing is part of filling your cup, and I said depends If you're organizing all day long red zone a little bit, Because it can yeah, it can deplete you.
Speaker 1:Again going back to like are you putting back that box every time it gets dropped or are you letting it be and then maybe the next day or at night you put it away? So it really depends. But it's looking, it's refining, editing your daily life to include things for you. I think that's what filling cup is and I'm telling you like, obviously I go through that where I'm like okay, and the moment I realize I'm on edge with my son, that's usually a sign for me.
Speaker 2:That's your warning sign.
Speaker 1:That's my warning sign. I'm like, ok, I need to do something different. Then I turn to my husband and I say Thursday morning can you take him to school? I need time in the morning because I'm realizing in the mornings I'm like on edge. I'm like I can't do this Monday through Friday. I'm like I can't do this Monday through Friday. I need help. So I'll ask him like what's a good morning for him to take him? And we'll rearrange that. And that morning is the best morning in the whole world. I'm like calm. I put makeup on for work, like it's so different.
Speaker 2:I like the makeup part that you brought up.
Speaker 2:I wanted to tap into something quite interesting. This kind of you know we swerve away a little bit about guilt, but lots of moms and again this goes back to some of the questions that I get on Instagram how can we maintain a more healthier appearance? Because they're just always, I relate, we're always on the go, go, go, go working, or this and that. So lots of moms will say things like oh, like, I just feel like a slob all the time. Yeah, I see so. And so she puts on her makeup every morning. She looks fabulous.
Speaker 2:Or I'm out having coffee, I see this woman. She's beautifully put together, I don't know. I think that's very important. There's these recent reels I've been watching. It's women going to the store in Europe, women going to the stores in America, and it's like this woman. She's cooking. She's like, oh my goodness, I forgot olive oil. And in her pajamas, yeah, with her bun. Yeah, she'll just go to Trader Joe's and she'll grab olive oil and she'll come home. And then it's a woman in france yeah, oh my god, I forgot my olive oil. She'll go back to her room, brush her hair, put some light mascara on a little bit of brush, a blush beautiful outfit, she'll go to the store and get her olive oil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've lost touch with our feminine side yeah so many places I can go with that, but, but it's meaningful.
Speaker 2:I think that it's a topic that definitely I would love to talk to you about, if you're comfortable of course because it's, it's again. We blame everything on being a mom.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's always I'm a mom. I'm a mom. It's like no lady. Yeah, yes, you're a mother, but there's also a thing called being a girl, and being a woman. Yeah, again, it's you putting everything else first and going to the market with slob and then you see somebody that looks better. Then you have this Schoenfreude feeling like ugh, so-and-so looks fabulous.
Speaker 1:Here's the thing. So I think life in America is different than life in France.
Speaker 2:Stress-wise Very Expectations.
Speaker 1:It's just different, um. So I think there's something there that maybe they have the energy and the lifestyle to do that. Possibly the other part is look, I myself had literally on my vision board a picture of makeup this was yeah is yeah yeah. Because I wanted to put more makeup on in the following year as a mom, Because the first few years I just never had time for it but why was that important for you To feel that feminine side and to feel put together and all of that.
Speaker 1:But I want to be very careful about this conversation because I think that there's also a side of people that put too much importance in that and how you look and the presentation of it that it gets kind of skewed, like you should be okay with your own skin and being comfortable without makeup and having the confidence in that and also prioritizing what's more important. So right now I don't have time to put makeup on every morning, but I ask myself what's more important, like, is it to get a shower in or to do my makeup, Even that yeah.
Speaker 1:Is it to take a healthy lunch to work or is it to put makeup? And the mornings, my husband takes him like I can do all of it, which is great. Yes, I can also wake up 30 minutes early and do it. But again I ask myself is this morning should I get that 30 minutes of sleep, or is it better for me to wear makeup? Okay, my clients are virtual today. I feel like I can just focus on this instead and instead of being. Obviously, I'm still put together when I go to work, but do you?
Speaker 2:know what I mean. I do go to work, but yes, do you do? You know what I mean I do. I mean again, I don't want women to think that we're talking about full glam yeah, but going back to the comment of you know europe, look there, it's not like women in europe don't have stressful yeah, and I'm definitely not saying no. No, I know, I know I just think that it's mental health here yeah I'm attacking that I think it's mental health here and I think that we're not.
Speaker 2:Look, everybody deserves the sympathy and empathy. But there has to be a point in your life where you just have to get these two arms put it on your knees and push yourself up you know, and sometimes you're not going to have that help and sometimes you're not going to be able to afford that therapist. But that doesn't mean that you can just rot and yeah, be a danger, because the most dangerous people are the weak people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because weak people are bitter. They are, they're, they're just dangerous. There's nothing good that comes from that. Even though you might have a lot of empathy for that person that are struggling, they're still. That's why I always say you guys, work on your mental side it's. I think a lot of that lack of taking care of yourself is mental, it's mental exhaustion it's the lack of help, all of that. So, that's why I want to put like the importance on even just brushing your teeth.
Speaker 1:There's women, there's moms who don't even do that, yeah, and they leave the house and say, oh my god, I forgot to brush my teeth, and it's like but you know I also want to normalize how hard it is like I have my two best friends are just getting married and getting into this life that I've been in for a minute and, and anytime I would share a struggle with them of like, oh, like, I don't feel like putting makeup on to be like, why just do it? Like, just, you know, I'm like, just do it. You just wait until you're in this because I want to normalize, like it. Even though it's such a simple task, it's so hard to be like you know what, let me do this. Or many mornings I start putting it on and my son's running around tugging me asking me for things and I'm just like, why did I? I'm sweating now.
Speaker 1:Like what was the point of this. You know so it is hard, but I think I like a tool. For me, a tool that works is asking those questions. How will I show up for myself today?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:How will I show up in my marriage, how will I show up as a mom If you put yourself together? Yeah, like, how and what can I do? Like, maybe showing up for me today is wearing makeup. Maybe showing up for myself today is getting a small movement of, I don't know, yoga, meditation, whatever, absolutely something yeah, and I don't think that question is asked because, you can do things and, like you're probably, you probably have a partner who's willing to help or a family member.
Speaker 1:There's really a lot of people that are always willing to help.
Speaker 2:I think they're willing to help, and sometimes they're not.
Speaker 1:It's because they are faced with criticism of they help and it's not done the right way. You know, a lot of husbands are discouraged from that.
Speaker 2:Yes, like oh you didn't do this right. Or oh, this smells horrible. Why did you put this here?
Speaker 1:Then they back away and I see this, I also see couples in my practice and oftentimes I'll hear the guy say well, I tried and I keep getting rejected. Then I don't want to try anymore. I bet Right and so it's really letting go of the control that if someone is helping lay, everyone will be fine, they'll figure it out, and that's another conversation to have with guilt is like it's okay to feel this and everything will be fine.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that help piece again going back to what you're saying is that help piece will allow women to be more collected. It'll allow you to brush your teeth, brush your hair or whatever you want to do to make yourself feel good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're not striving for perfection.
Speaker 1:We're striving for just a healthier, loving, happier life and not being miserable when we're older and regretting things. And this is the thing. Going back to husbands is one day your kids are going to potentially move out right Whether college for marriage, whatever and then you're going to be stuck with that person and it better be a good place that you are going to be in, because otherwise it's not going to be happiness. Yes, and I say that also with Grace, because it's very hard to put effort into your relationship, especially as a new mom. It gets rocked right Like.
Speaker 1:I feel like my husband and I had a strong foundation going into giving birth, like during pregnancy it was the pandemic times and we were home together and it was great and I was like, ok, okay, we got this, we're gonna be perfect at this. And then the first few months I remember it was like when he started going back to work that I realized like I'm on edge with him, on resentful he's not the one breastfeeding, like he's not the one having these feelings, and his body didn't change and it was so much resentment and I had to really work through that. And I remember one night in the kitchen we're standing and I was like, whatever we're doing right now. We need to like, reevaluate, like we need to communicate about the how on edge we've been, yes, and come back to the place we were before. And it's constant effort with every stage, every phase. It's constant, like, hey, what's happening here? Like, let's reevaluate, yes, it's normal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's normal, absolutely. I think women would love to actually hear that that your relationship does change, and it's. Sometimes the change is too bad and you just have to work on getting it back to what it needs to be, but the baby does stir up the relationship these little monsters just I mean it makes you love your partner too, because you're like, oh my God, like, look how great they are with them and they're helpful and present.
Speaker 1:But it's no matter how helpful and supportive your husband is, the mental load of a mom.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're the ones carrying the baby, bir, the baby. There's so much there that, no matter how amazing they are, they will never just understand that do you think nothing?
Speaker 2:do you feel that mothers have lost touch with being mothers? What do you mean by that? Um, I feel I feel like nowadays, women are prioritizing careers more, even when they are mothers yeah Right, and I'm seeing this a lot like they have children, but for some reason, their careers are taking precedence over their family. I don't know if you're seeing this, but I certainly am, and children are being neglected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think it's striving for that balance rather than being extreme in what you're choosing, right, like wearing the mom hat all the time or being so involved in your career. And I mean I'm not seeing that in my practice per se, but I see it more in the men when we talk about career, of dads not being present because after work yeah after, after work, and they're just always working and providing for the family and choosing career first and of course that's happening with women nowadays too, but yes it.
Speaker 1:and then, when you ask that person, they're doing it for their family and they're doing it to provide.
Speaker 2:The reason why I say that is because there's this pressure on women that meaning and purpose is elsewhere. Yeah, and this is portrayed in social media, whether it's TikTok or whatever. I mean, I'm not going to blame Instagram only because there's other platforms, but there's this definite, you know, pressure on women to have careers, and these are women who already have, I mean children already. But even to the ones that don't, there's this pressure on younger women and women who have children that their purpose comes from jobs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so and if you're not working, you're like shamed, like oh oh, you're a stay-at-home mom, You're not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're not meaningful. Yeah, home mom. Yeah, you're not. Yeah, you're not meaningful. Yeah, you don't have purpose in your life where I think the most important purpose is raising a child.
Speaker 1:Like tomorrow's society, my guess is people who say that are saying it from a place of guilt if they're judging the shame, guilt the moms that stay at home because they don't get to have that.
Speaker 1:And so I think that's where, like anytime, we share a judgmental comment like that, especially out loud, it comes from a place of desiring that Right. And then the mom who stays at home might say like, oh, so when do you spend time with your kid? And that's a judgmental comment. That's because they wish they could do something outside of the house. And then the mom who is working all the time will look at the mom who's at home and say like, so you're, what do you do all day? Like what do you right? So, god, I just wish we stayed away from that judgment.
Speaker 2:How do you, how do you um? What advice would you give women to handle judgment like that?
Speaker 1:well, I think for stay-at-home moms, uh, the hard part is yes right, this pressure of like no purpose, even from husbands, yeah, what do?
Speaker 2:you do all day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have the hardest job in the whole world, but they can't portray that they can't.
Speaker 2:You can't have person understand that, so how can they work with comments like?
Speaker 1:you get confident within you that you are doing the best job in the world.
Speaker 2:Confident in your character, you mean like with yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then the comments won't impact you as much. It's kind of like I don't know why I'm thinking of this, but when I was breastfeeding and I switched the formula and then we were around people and they said like I was holding the bottle and they're like, oh, you're breastfeeding. And I was like no, it's formula. And they like made like a judgment this face, yeah, and I wasn't confident yet to handle that, so I it really upset me and I was really hurt. What?
Speaker 2:gave you the call well, so I'm not cutting you off, I just want to dive into this, because this is something that women struggle with. When you say they threw a comment of oh, you're a formula feeding and at the time I didn't have that confidence, Well, what gave you the confidence to reply? What would give women Therapy?
Speaker 1:Yes, honestly.
Speaker 2:I always guide the question back to.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I have to thank my therapist, who really helping me sit through with it I can't give you it is yeah, I can't give you the magic answer of like do this, do this and then you'll, you won't feel the guilt, you won't feel the negative feelings. I really had to do my own work to feel okay with the guilt, to feel okay with not breastfeeding, to feel okay with formula feeding. And after some time, when I gained my confidence, then I was like yeah, it's formula, it's actually this formula and like do you want the recommendation? Like, the conversation changed. So yes, it's not that the people change what they're saying, I changed how I was feeling about it.
Speaker 1:I agree yeah, so if you're a stay-at-home mom, own it. It's the hardest job in the whole wide world, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:You don't have to prove, you know. There's this part in Sex and the City. Yeah, when they're drinking, I think. Who's the brunette and the redhead? Miranda?
Speaker 1:Miranda, charlotte, charlotte, they're drinking it.
Speaker 2:I think they're in like, how do single mothers do it? And then she's like I have no effing idea, but let's cheers to them too. It is so hard and I really, genuinely want to praise every mother who's a stay-at-home mom, Our mothers too, Every single mother out there in the world they deserve the world, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And you know also, to add to that that, that you're still you know how you're like you're still a little girl. You're still you, yeah, outside, even if you're a stay-at-home mom, and then maybe it's not the career, maybe it's doing something for yourself in a different way. That doesn't mean that you just get swallowed into this motherhood.
Speaker 2:Yes, uh, hats not the end, no, you, there's other parts you have to explore of yourself and really like um water the plant.
Speaker 1:You know ethical obligation yeah yeah, you have that.
Speaker 2:You need to, we, we have to, absolutely. One thing I wanted to say to add to that comment when you said therapist, uh, your therapist helped you build that confidence. Yes, sometimes it can be done with self-educating yourself, but also part of the reason why women, we intake negative comments is again because of that confidence level. So when you're confident, you don't view people's judgment so negatively. It could just be something in the air, like it's just the comment in the air. You don't personalize it you don't personalize it absolutely.
Speaker 2:but when you're in that low state where you're not really confident and really your character isn't built to where it needs to be, you're gonna take every single person's look, yeah, stare or like smirk, yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:and you're gonna come home and chew your husband's head off yeah, yeah, and you know I deal with that even in every stage of parenthood. As I transition from one stage to another, I have to get comfortable in what I'm choosing to do, like you know I might do. Let's say, I did sleep training and someone else didn't like and there's judgment on that and I had to get comfortable with, like this is what works for my family no judgment to anybody who does it differently.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is what works. Or we did no screen time until two. No judgment to anybody else. But I would get judgment, by the way, like, oh, why not? Why not use a screen, like it's just so much easier.
Speaker 1:And I had to get comfortable with saying like this is what works, but this is what works for you, yeah, and so it's interesting that even when you choose to do things differently and not go against what like around you people do, I don't have a judgment, but somehow that judgment and I have to work through it. I think it shocks people when they hear that I have a therapist and for me I'm like so open about it. Sometimes I see her weekly, sometimes it's once every two weeks, once a month, depending how I'm doing. They're the best. Yeah, and I need that in motherhood.
Speaker 1:Yes, you do I needed to figure it out to be able to help my clients better. If I don't work on it myself, I'm not going to be able to help again. Going back to helping yourself before you can help others always, yeah it is the most important thing in the world and I, besides gabor, I was watching this other armenian.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, what was his? Dr? Mirza beck, I think. So smart, such a powerful man, and he constantly in every youtube video he mentions. A sick mother is not a good mother, and I don't mean by physically like illnesses or anything like that, but just a mother who's neglectful yeah, of themselves yes, so absolutely, I think that we I think we did a great job. Portraying that guilt is okay, normalize it, work through it and taking care of yourself is an absolute essential in a woman's life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just ask yourself how can I show up for myself? Yes, you know, and I asked that on my Instagram. I ask every week, yeah, but I also always put in there. I'm like this isn't to increase um comparison or to create these like. No, it's to inspire. Can you view this and say like, oh okay, maybe all I need is five minutes to read. Maybe that's gonna fill me up today, like use it as inspiration.
Speaker 2:That's genius, by the way. Thank you, it's meaningful and I think a lot of people will take that today A lot of women?
Speaker 1:I hope so.
Speaker 2:Why not men?
Speaker 1:They will take that, because it's very powerful to constantly self-reflect and ask yourself Listen, I don't think we are the generation that is going to absolutely break this cycle. I think it's going to take a few more generations, but we are changing, but we're doing it, we're starting that change.
Speaker 2:So have that grace that, like, we have a huge weight on our shoulders.
Speaker 1:We do, and it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's very hard. Koyaan, thank you so much for today. Thank you for having me. Oh, my gosh, I feel like I can talk to you for hours. It doesn't even feel like a podcast. I keep looking at my camera but, um, you're such an easy person to talk to. You're very poised and like, graceful, and you're very soft-spoken. I'm sure your clients and future clients definitely are very lucky, because, I mean, I'm just sitting and I'm you're. It's easily like conversatable, like I can open up to you and I, you, and I think that you're in the right place.
Speaker 1:Thank, you so much.
Speaker 2:Therapist was your Thank you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that you were born to do.
Speaker 2:It's your meaning, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I truly, truly feel that way and thank you for having this platform and making it easy to talk about this. I think it's a very important topic. It's my honor.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, thank you, guys, for watching.