Unlock Your True Potential: Breaking Free from Perfectionism with Dr. Menije Boduryan
Are you ready to unlock your true potential and embrace a life free from the shackles of perfectionism? Join us for a transformative conversation with Dr. Menije Boduryan a licensed clinical psychologist renowned for her deep understanding of OCD and perfectionism.
In this enlightening episode, Dr. Menije unveils the often-overlooked facets of perfectionism, revealing that it's not just about striving for flawless tasks but also about deeper emotional struggles like people-pleasing, difficulty in expressing feelings, and saying no. Gain profound insights into how these patterns, rooted in trauma or developmental experiences, impact your relationships and self-connection.
Ever wondered how perfectionism and procrastination are intertwined? Dr. Boduryan delves into this complex relationship, explaining how emotional responses such as fear of imperfection can lead to delays and avoidance. Explore societal and parental pressures contributing to these feelings from a young age, and discover the impact of comparison and praise on reinforcing a perfectionistic mindset.
Through engaging audience questions and heartwarming personal anecdotes, we uncover practical tips for pursuing dreams without falling into self-destructive behaviors. Discover the critical role of self-compassion in managing parental stress and guilt, and learn invaluable strategies from Dr. Menije’s program, "Breaking Up with Perfectionism."
Our episode also takes a deep dive into people-pleasing behaviors and their effect on relationship authenticity. Explore how unbalanced efforts can create disconnection and isolation, and gain insights into fostering personal growth and addressing these behaviors. Dr. Boduryan shares wisdom on navigating the potential loss of relationships as one becomes more authentic, emphasizing the importance of embracing one’s rich cultural heritage in a world that often demands conformity.
Tune in for a compelling exploration of embracing your true self and breaking free from the harmful patterns of perfectionism. Don’t miss out on this opportunity to embark on a journey of self-discovery and empowerment!
Unlock Your True Potential: Breaking Free from Perfectionism with Dr. Menije Boduryan
Are you ready to unlock your true potential and embrace a life free from the shackles of perfectionism? Join us for a transformative conversation with Dr. Menije Boduryan a licensed clinical psychologist renowned for her deep understanding of OCD and perfectionism.
In this enlightening episode, Dr. Menije unveils the often-overlooked facets of perfectionism, revealing that it's not just about striving for flawless tasks but also about deeper emotional struggles like people-pleasing, difficulty in expressing feelings, and saying no. Gain profound insights into how these patterns, rooted in trauma or developmental experiences, impact your relationships and self-connection.
Ever wondered how perfectionism and procrastination are intertwined? Dr. Boduryan delves into this complex relationship, explaining how emotional responses such as fear of imperfection can lead to delays and avoidance. Explore societal and parental pressures contributing to these feelings from a young age, and discover the impact of comparison and praise on reinforcing a perfectionistic mindset.
Through engaging audience questions and heartwarming personal anecdotes, we uncover practical tips for pursuing dreams without falling into self-destructive behaviors. Discover the critical role of self-compassion in managing parental stress and guilt, and learn invaluable strategies from Dr. Menije’s program, "Breaking Up with Perfectionism."
Our episode also takes a deep dive into people-pleasing behaviors and their effect on relationship authenticity. Explore how unbalanced efforts can create disconnection and isolation, and gain insights into fostering personal growth and addressing these behaviors. Dr. Boduryan shares wisdom on navigating the potential loss of relationships as one becomes more authentic, emphasizing the importance of embracing one’s rich cultural heritage in a world that often demands conformity.
Tune in for a compelling exploration of embracing your true self and breaking free from the harmful patterns of perfectionism. Don’t miss out on this opportunity to embark on a journey of self-discovery and empowerment!
You see how internally people are saying why bother if it's not going to be perfect, you know? Or why start if I'm not going to finish it?
Speaker 2:There's something about guilt like we might look at it as a negative, but I think that guilt works in so many different ways and sometimes it could mean that we're just really, really good moms.
Speaker 1:Teach yourself a trick that is doable and then add to it the next day, right Like, if you can wake up 10 minutes before your kid today, that's going to be. That's more likely to be 20 next week.
Speaker 2:I always thought procrastination was unwanted feelings, like not dealing with it, because it's just such unwanted feelings Like ugh, I don't want to deal with it while doing the task.
Speaker 1:Genuine philosophy in life is once you accept things as things are, you can then focus on what you want to change.
Speaker 2:My friends don't want to be my friends anymore. My relatives don't call me as much anymore. Well, you're changing and they're used to this other side of you. Hello everyone, thank you for joining me today. Today's episode was with Dr Manizheh Budarian. Dr Manizheh is a licensed clinical psychologist and has her own private practice. She specializes in OCD and perfectionism.
Speaker 2:What's really interesting about this conversation and I'm going to start with this is because we all think that perfectionism is task-related. She dropped a bomb today in today's episode and said it has very minimal to do with task, but majority also has to do with saying no and, when someone hurts you, being more expressive and sharing your feelings on how that person has hurt you. It was really interesting to kind of hear that because, again, a lot of us think that perfectionism is maybe writing a paper and over and over again till it's you know perfect, or cleaning the house, or you know so, on and so forth. So it was really intertwined with a lot of experiences. So perfectionism some of you argue that it could be with, it could be from trauma, some say it's inherited, some say it's developed. So she talked about how we develop this mindset not necessarily a personality, but she said that it's a mindset, so it was really interesting to hear how to overcome and in her latest program she named it Breaking Up with Perfectionism.
Speaker 2:There's no such a thing as a healthy perfectionism. It does hurt you along the way, it creates resentment, it destroys a lot of relationships, it destroys the connection with yourself, your authentic self. So I really loved hearing her research, her thoughts and how she treats her clients that suffer from perfectionism mindset. We did dive into a little bit of OCD, but I think what really was fun about this episode is you guys' questions. I've had maybe about 20, 25 questions turned in. We only got to maybe five or six of them, but it was really beautiful how she answered all those questions. So I think you guys are really going to enjoy this episode with Dr Manizheh Boudarian. Thank you for watching and do not forget to subscribe. Thank you guys. Hi, hello, hello. So, dr Manizheh B Budarian, yes, how are you.
Speaker 1:I am very good we're testing, right, because I'm just no.
Speaker 2:Oh, we started.
Speaker 1:You said testing. Oh gosh, hey, we broke the ice. Yes, yes, talk about imperfections. You see, this is what happens. Yes, how are you?
Speaker 2:I am very good. How are you Good? I'm so excited to first of all. We have been following each other for how long, like past.
Speaker 1:COVID right or was it. It actually was right around COVID that I met you online and it's been so wonderful to connect with you, and thank you so much for having me here. And it's been so wonderful to connect with you. Oh, my God, you too, and thank you so much for having me here.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's my honor. I really genuinely enjoy your work. I think it's so unique Tackling perfectionism, Perfectionists there's a lot of people who are perfectionists huh.
Speaker 1:It takes one to treat one.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, that's right.
Speaker 1:Let's just break the ice. That's right. Let's just break the ice, let's. I'm here to be vulnerable, so I love that. Yeah, oh yeah. Um, it really came from my own personal, obviously, journey as well. That's why I think so.
Speaker 2:I think that, but that's what makes you a better therapist, when you've, like, experienced the trauma of it, the heartache of it yourself like it's not just what you learn, or the different diplomas hanging from your wall. It's personal experience. Yes, what was your personal experience with perfectionism.
Speaker 1:So for me I mean how I uncovered I was struggling with. It happened about a decade, a little bit over a decade ago. It was like towards the end of my 20s. I read Brene Brown's book Brene Brown, which one yes. Gifts of Imperfection.
Speaker 2:That's a really good book.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was such a rude awakening and it was in that book that I understood what I was struggling with for you know many years, like the whole feeling like I'm, you know, doing something wrong or did I upset somebody, feeling that sense of like worry and anxiety that's stemming from wanting to do things perfectly and make sure that you know, like you're your perfect self wherever you go, and that's Sorry to cut you off.
Speaker 2:You said something really interesting. You said to upset someone. Oh, yes, that's part of perfectionism. Yes, because people think perfectionism is all items based to clean, to write a perfect paper.
Speaker 1:It's all task oriented, right, Correct. That's what we typically think. And then in relationships, you see a lot of people pleasing and codependency. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:So that's part of perfectionism. It really is Let me make you happy, because when you're upset, I can't sit with your discomfort. So, I'll go out of my way to make you smile, but I'm killing myself slowly, absolutely Again.
Speaker 1:Breonna Brown has this beautiful saying like you know, to keep the peace inside, you start a war. To keep the peace outside, you start a war inside. Yeah, and what's interesting though like the reason it shows up also in relationship, not just like academic goals or work related goal has to do with what's in the core of it, which, if we could just dive right into it, is that you feel like you're just not good enough. I know that's maybe been said a million times now in social media, but it really is. In the essence, it's this self-doubt and lack of self-love where you wonder there's something about you that's not good enough and that you don't belong. So for me, that was part of my story to coming here middle of my adolescent, feeling like I'm always one step behind from everybody, whether it's the understanding, the cultural nuances and the jokes, and you know the you know the conversations and so something latches onto that idea that maybe there's something not good enough about you.
Speaker 1:And so in relationships you think, if I am the perfect person and if I don't upset you and if I can tell your needs before you even have to tell me what they are, and we don't fight at all, we don't have any confrontation because perfect relationship is supposed to be these peachy, you know. No fight, no argument settings, then I will feel love, I will feel safe and I feel like I belong.
Speaker 2:But then when you go home, you slowly eat away your soul because you're not being authentic and true to yourself and really being articulating how you feel.
Speaker 1:And when you say relationships, this probably goes to relationships with your mother-in-law, relationships with sister-in-laws, friends, correct All relationships, right School, social dating and family relationships and it's this false expectation that you put on yourself that you should always be ahead of people in assessing their needs and feeling over responsible. I mean, it's, it's. It's. It really comes from a very insecure place, but it's almost borderline arrogant to think that you can tell everybody's needs all the time.
Speaker 2:Like's interesting. Yes, when does that stem from? How do we develop that sense of arrogance? Or how do we develop that need to continuously prove everybody or not prove everybody make everyone happy around us?
Speaker 1:I do believe that at the core of it and this is, of course, coming from a very compassionate place I do believe that we're wired for social connection. Yes, you know, I do believe that we're social beings, right Like one of the things I never forget and forgive me, I'm not going to remember the exact name of the research study, but there was one in like early 60s or 70s where they did it with this monkey, where there was a wired monkey the mirror neurons study Was it the one, like the baby monkey that had this wired mommy looking, that had the milk bottle. And then there was another monkey that was made out of cushions and pillows and the monkey would go towards the one that was soft and comforting.
Speaker 2:Nurturing.
Speaker 1:Right nurturing, and we understood even in this very simple ways how we're wired for connection, safety, comfort. And I do think that I always tell my clients like struggle with people pleasing. I say that it's a side effect of connection. You know how you take medication. There are side effects like nausea, let's say, maybe upset stomach, and so we kind of like, obviously within reasons, tolerate the side effects to get the help we need. So I told them like sometimes people pleasing is to get the help we need. So I told them like sometimes people pleasing is a side effect of wanting connection, which doesn't mean you should keep being a people pleaser, but it's actually looking at the problem from a compassionate place. I think it really comes from need for connection and belonging.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree how much of that is impacting people's lives, like I'm sure you see people that have anxiety attacks from it, and I guess what I'm trying to say is it creates disconnection. I feel like if I am trying to make a person happy in a relationship by not really being authentic, even if they're hurting me, yeah Right, like I'll, I'll still be nice and I'll still be really kind and respectful that distance me from that person. Yes, yeah, so how? What's a good balance?
Speaker 1:Well, that empathy piece and that compassionate piece. I think one of the things I also want to mention is the resentment. Yes, right, so what happens in couples therapy? I often see it where one partner gets to a point of burnout and resentment and then they look at all the things they've done for the other person and the ugly truth is that was never asked of you, you know, or you never communicated.
Speaker 1:Hey, these are the things that I can maybe offer to you, which you know, like, not that we sit down and, like you know, tally up what we give and receive, but having that conversation. So, when you mentioned disconnection, I wanted to also point out like not being our authentic self and giving more than self, and giving more than asked or even necessary leads to burnout or resentment. So you end up exactly I think you know what you're pointing out what starts as a good intention like I want to have a quote, unquote perfect relationship, which what we're really trying to want is happy relationship turns into a resentful, burnout, disconnected, isolated relationship, because you don't know me anymore.
Speaker 2:So let's say there's a couple and the husband or the wife, vice versa, they're both well, whatever. Which one of them is a severe people pleaser? Yes, and I hear this a lot in our culture, where either the husband is all about other people and not the family, or it's the wife Like heavy people pleasers and the relationship is bad. They're seeking couples therapy. Do you feel like that relationship is something that can heal?
Speaker 1:Every relationship can heal. I think it's the matter of what, how much energy. I think that's left in us, because that's the truth. I do I do want to be honest and like raw about, please.
Speaker 1:Sometimes we run out of yeah we run out of energy and there's not much left to give, and that's okay. That doesn't mean that you're weak. It doesn't mean that you don't value long-term relationship, um, but it's this reality that, by the time, maybe we are looking at the problem. We ran out of. We ran out of things to give. I try not not to make any.
Speaker 1:You know, obviously, that black and white like oh, these relationships can heal this relationship can't I do. You know, when you look at Gottman's research, they do have masters versus disasters. There's a reason why there are relationships that are really struggling. I also believe in unlearning things. So when you mention like those relationships which is very common in our culture, where we have a really hard time finding a balance between being there for extended family members and being there for our partner, I think things can be unlearned. No matter where you are in your life and how long your marriage has been going, you can start a new chapter, but it's about like, are you willing to rewemp that energy? And like, because you can't pour from an empty cup. Absolutely, you can't tell me well, I've been in this marriage for 12 years Like, you have to be able to reset.
Speaker 2:That's so true. The reason why I'm asking is because, you know, this morning I put a question out. I said if you guys have any people pleasing questions, let me know. I'm gonna ask Dr Badarian. And all of them were task related. Oh, and that's why I keep going into these and it might sound kind of unorganized, you guys, but I I'm going from all aspects so that people understand that perfectionism isn't all task related, like, yes, it's about people pleasing and wanting other people happy versus yourself. So you have this program. I kind of looked into it. It said divorcing your right.
Speaker 1:Is that what it was Breaking up?
Speaker 2:with your perfectionism. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, what the program is all about. So I do have, obviously for people who are in California.
Speaker 1:I do offer therapy for them. But over the years I wanted to reach out to more people and I know you relate to that, so I created a self-help course and it walks you through like. The first module is like looking at the root causes of your perfectionism and really uncovering sequence of events that may have shaped your perfectionism. Then I walk people through their thought patterns, because it's so important to look at the all or nothing thinking we have and the inner critic. That's another thing about perfectionism. People often don't understand because we think perfectionists are very confident because they establish a lot understand because we think perfectionists are very confident because they establish a lot.
Speaker 1:They are high achiever. They're, you know, typically a lot of people who have high goals for themselves, big dreams for themselves. They tend to be a perfectionist, but that doesn't mean they're confident and also.
Speaker 2:I'll add to that it also doesn't mean that they're very liked. I have worked with some perfectionists and I have to be honest, they're very difficult people to work with.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, so if you get the people pleaser like I used to be, I would be I would, I would do whatever you needed. But then there's, of course, like you mentioning, the other side of perfectionism, where they can be very rigid on the way they want things to be done and they actually also can complain a lot, not because, again, at the core of it, it's not because they are mean people, but the pressure to have the perfect results make them forget what it means to be a team player, what it means to be flexible and compromising and accommodating. It really is a pressure and there's in our minds, there is a fear that if the outcome is not perfect, I will lose my status, I will lose my job, I will lose your approval of me.
Speaker 2:Is that trauma? Is that tied to trauma?
Speaker 1:I think there is anxious and avoidant attachment. It's absence of secure attachment, absence of secure attachment?
Speaker 2:Yes, and to your point, some of it could be yes, it does.
Speaker 1:It does come from childhood.
Speaker 2:So how can parents do a better job with the secure attachment versus the anxious? I mean you see a lot of kids that are super anxious. I mean, when I go back and I like view my life, I always look at uh the um. Yes, everything can start from, like childhood, but I think children start feeling it more when they get into, you know, schools, like when they start kindergarten or daycares. That's when you actually leave mom or dad for several hours. I don't know, do you think it stems from that? Maybe it's something different.
Speaker 1:I think that you are the pro at this.
Speaker 1:Educate me, please. What I've come to realize, though, is that our lives are so complicated, right, and I do realize we're so multifaceted that all I can ask people when we have these conversations and, of course, I'm happy to explore more but what I really like to start with is there's no one shoe that fits all. There's never going to be one place from your life I can pinpoint. I cannot say age five, I cannot say middle school. I cannot say middle school. I cannot say oh, the day your parents divorced.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I think that's what people are looking for when they ask those questions. Yeah, the wanting to know.
Speaker 1:Yes, if you could just tell me where it happened, maybe I can just hyper focus on that area, but the answer is a sequence of events.
Speaker 1:You know it's really is because one of the things I also talk about. Because when I tell people I unpacked my perfectionism in my late 20s and here I am, you know, 40 years old they think I might not struggle with this. And but when I had my daughter seven years ago, it was right. There. It said because here's the other thing about perfectionism, I realized it latches on to anything you value and it says for things to be meaningful, for things that you care, for, things that have value, you must do it perfectly. That's why it doesn't just stop at my work. It follows me to my marriage, it follows me to my relationships, my friendships. And it said anything that you care about, anything that you value, for it to be meaningful, you have to do it perfectly. So you struggle with that thought and you tell yourself no, I don't, my authentic, imperfect self is good enough. And it's our imperfect selves that come together that makes this thing crazy thing called life beautiful.
Speaker 2:That's powerful. How do you help somebody who's struggling with perfectionism? Like what are your steps? Like what do you do? Because that's meaningful, I bet they're in such relief after.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think there there's relief, but there's also ambivalence, because I also like to honor that perfectionism serves us well and there's a grief that comes with it, does it? Yes, because it's because I did things perfectly at some level that I got into the schools, I got into right and I did things perfectly, or really well to some extent, that I was maybe given leadership roles. So I do always honor that. When we do things well, we get rewarded, we get invited to places and we get people's attention. You know people may want to, you know, be curious about us, and so I don't want to deny that it may have started well, but realizing that it doesn't end well, that eventually the pressure to do things perfectly will make us overgive, as we were talking earlier, right, overdo things and think that we haven't done enough.
Speaker 1:We haven't enough done to rest, self care is selfish. I haven't done enough. I need to keep doing. I need to check up on another family member, right, you, you checked in on your mom today, but what about your aunt, you know? What about your brother? What about your partner? Did you guys have any date night? So, again, that to-do list never ends. It doesn't.
Speaker 2:And I see people sometimes too, they are very, very involved in family conflicts and they're the ones who get called all the time. You know, your brother is fighting with his wife. You have to come down now and it's like, and I see these things and it's's again, it stems from that perfectionist right like that, not being able to say no, yes it does, it does, and it's all of these unhealthy expectations in our relationships that we allow yes, because we confuse kindness, loyalty with you know, know, like the, the, the, it gets confused that if you are unavailable and if you happen to not pick up your phone, you're not being dependable, you know, or you're not seen as helpful.
Speaker 1:And so we think that if I'm a loyal, um, consistent, helpful family member, like a sister or a daughter, then I have to pick up all the calls. I have to be thinking about every detail, everyone's problems everyone's heartache yeah. And that's so much. And you know we're glorified for it. You know that like, look at all the compliments we get.
Speaker 2:But when is it enough, right? Yes, yes. Do you think that you start seeing health issues with people who do have this? Is it a personality? By the way, is being a perfectionist a personality type? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I have looked into it and I think that there is not an agreed definition in the sense that, like, sometimes I think about it as a mindset. You know, I do look at it as like a mindset and then other days I think it becomes your personality because obviously they get integrated right, like the way you think affects the way you behave and the way you behave then becomes who you are eventually. So I do think that it becomes all one you know you want to think about as a mindset or a personality thing. But to to going back to health problems and also like how can people work on this perfectionism? I do hope like conversations like this make us more aware, but still, till this day, I still get people coming to therapy because they have anxiety, they have insomnia, from this mindset, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:But they don't come in saying I think I have unrealistically, you know, high expectations of myself. That's killing me. They don't. They say I'm having sleep problems. They say my appetite is off, I am so fatigued, I'm lethargic, I don't have energy, like I'm unmotivated. Oh, that's one last thing I wanted to add to, like you know how people pleasing was unexpected, yes, sign of perfectionism. Another big one is procrastination.
Speaker 2:I always thought procrastination was unwanted feelings, like not dealing with it because it's just such unwanted feelings like I don't want to deal with it. Yes, while doing the task, is that what it is?
Speaker 1:I do believe I agree with you that I or at least I really come to better understand how we are never avoiding the task, we're avoiding the feeling we have about the task.
Speaker 1:So I totally agree with you that I think procrastination is an emotional response. What was also again kind of integrated into that vicious cycle of paralysis analysis is why are you so overwhelmed by this task, like if I interview somebody and I tell them like okay, so you want to work on your resume and it's very overwhelming for you which you're avoiding the overwhelm by watching TV or playing video games yes.
Speaker 1:Or a phone, today's distraction yes, you're on TikTok, you're on social media, and when I ask them what's so overwhelming about this, then we again. This is where I sometimes think about it as such a cognitive issue or mindset problem. You see how, internally, people are saying why bother if it's not going to be perfect? Or why start if I'm not going to finish it? Why start if it's not going to turn out really well? And I know it's again. These one-liners are sometimes too catchy, but they really are powerful and one of them is done is better than perfect.
Speaker 1:I love that and people forget that done is better than perfect. Progress over perfection, and that's why I say perfectionism lead to procrastination, because people procrastinate only when they think that they have to do it perfectly and forget the power of showing up.
Speaker 2:I'm still curious where this stems from. I mean, I know we're not going to pinpoint it exactly because everyone's life is different, everyone's experiences are different. But I always think of could it be know children are pressured a lot? Um, they're compared a lot. A lot of you know children nowadays are you know their grades are compared to their classmates. You know the way they clean their room. Oh, you know so-and-so's room is cleaner than yours. I went to their house for coffee and, oh, you should have seen how her daughter was sitting, and so on and so forth. But this can lead to perfectionism, correct?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean, comparison is teeth of all joy and we know that comparison trap is a big one. So what I would still encourage people to do is obviously this takes time and a lot of journaling, but I would love them to look at the story of their lives and how it unfolded and absolutely start from childhood and see how your relationship with your parents were. I try not to jump to that answer when we talk about what causes perfectionism, because I feel like it's just too you know, it's kind of like too juicy of an answer Like oh, it must be my mom, it must be my dad, not always but of course it's a good place to start.
Speaker 1:Start from your childhood. Look at your relationship with your parents, because I know there are so many of us did grow up with very demanding parents. They did. You know there's so many people out there that did grow up with parents who overvalue what you know, what we call overvaluing achievements and overvaluing, like you said, the grades and um, I think that, unintentionally, one of the social messages I grew up with a lot were what it means to be a good girl and good girls don't make a lot of noise. Good girls don't complain.
Speaker 2:Good girls don't get dirty.
Speaker 1:You know they sit properly, they do their homework when it's supposed to be, and it wasn't like so explicitly, but I think there was this implicit messages, or another thing that happened unintentionally for me was how I was rewarded indirectly for doing things that were well-behaved of me.
Speaker 2:How were you rewarded?
Speaker 1:With a lot of praise, you know. And my sweet older brother he's just a year older than me, 18 months older than me, but he struggled at school. So my well-behaved, you know, patterns got amplified when you look at his some of his struggles, or some of struggles, I think when I look back, it's a very typical, maybe boy behavior. But when you look at how he was and how easygoing I was, I think I became even more appreciated for how clean I kept my room and how quickly I would just do my homework when I came home from school. And then I would say my school environment was very traditional in that way, you know, there was very clear expectations of what it means to be a good student and what that looks like.
Speaker 1:And you know, in our culture we value those things and I don't think it's all bad. I'm not here to say, you know, because that's another kind of I don't want to call it a complaint, but a conversation I have with clients or with people they think when you question or start to work on your perfectionism, they're afraid that they're going to be quote unquote mediocre, and then I'm asking them to lower their standards. Oh my goodness. And I always reassure them that this is not about lowering your standards, it's not about taking your dreams away from you. It's just about how you're going about your dreams and making sure you're not killing yourself along the way.
Speaker 2:Wow. So people think that by I wouldn't say giving up, but slowing down that mindset is tied to. Oh, so you want me to be mediocre, mediocre like you really want me to fail like that oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like as if none of my dreams are going to come true now. I'm not going to get into school I want. I will get fired if I'm not this careful. If I'm not like you know, I will get fired. If I'm not this careful, if I'm not, like you know, triple checking my emails, I will make a huge mistake that will cost me my career.
Speaker 1:So, as you can see, what also reinforces perfectionism because this is where it's so multilayered is our what we call catastrophic thinking. We think the worst case scenario, we do, we miscalculate, yes, and that's what I always try to encourage people to. Sometimes, you know, I one of the things I once read somewhere that I loved. It said our minds can play tricks on us, you know, and our minds misreads situation, right, miscalculates, and, and we have to be willing to obviously step back and maybe question you know what, if I didn't work three hours on this presentation and I only did it half of that time, like an hour? You know, like what, if I take that chance a little bit, so sometimes actually therapy, or working on your take that chance a little bit, so sometimes actually therapy, or working on your, perfectionism becomes a little bit of an experiment Like you have to do exposures, yes, like look at me, I came here late. Try to open this at the same time.
Speaker 1:I'm like okay, no, because I'm pressing the wrong. Yeah, so it's like some of it is exposure right, some of it is doing things outside of your comfort zone, what I like to call it opposite actions and try to maybe gather data for yourself, because you're so you know, honestly stuck on assuming that doing it this way. Have you know it has to be this way for this result. Can you do the opposite a little bit and see what kind of results you get? And, as you and I both know, the world keeps spinning. Yeah, nobody gets worried as much as you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know doing the wrong thing. Yes, my God. Yes, the way that people tend to judge themselves. Yeah, I think people have. I think we're, you know, we're coming along and people are doing a better job. They're more mindful of therapy, they understand where they're more conscious, people are waking up and loving themselves more, or trying to learn how to love themselves more. But with this comes this judgment. It's like sometimes I hear people say just horrific things to themselves, like when I mean horrific, I mean like really bad words, like oh, you're so stupid, how could you have done this? And I've literally have heard people say that. So it's so unfortunate. I wonder if that's like learned some, you know they they pick that up from somebody saying that to them or genuinely they feel that way. I don't't know. It's horrible either way.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you know I'm curious what your experience was with your son. But my daughter, like I said, she's seven now and there has been once or twice, you know, I caught her being harsh on herself, right, and I've caught her, and it's a delicate balance between having her do her best but also accept that it's not going to be great the first time. Yes, it's really is a delicate, delicate balance and I think that I've noticed that they're going to be exposed to words, right, they're going to hear words like stupid, loser, weird. So it's not that I could have, like you know, protect, not that's even a protection, but it's not like I could have kept her in a bubble and not have her hear those words.
Speaker 1:So she clearly got exposed to those words I don't know, maybe four, you know something like that and then you start seeing kids use that in sentence. You know that's weird and then you correct them like oh, that's different, it's unique, it's, you know, more colorful, less colorful than you're used to. And then, as you said, when they make a mistake, those words do pop up from their vocabulary and I just try to be mindful of those moments and get ahead of it a little bit so that we can redirect them, because I think what happens to us is, unfortunately we weren't redirected and, as you know, with negative thinking patterns, it's because over and over again, we kind of fell into that thinking patterns and now we're 25, 30, and that's our kind of dominant or go-to self-dialogue, that's true. And so now, obviously, here we are going to therapy, doing our personal work, journaling, reading books and trying to unlearn some of that and instead respond to stressors, hiccups, imperfections, with more self-compassion.
Speaker 2:Do you have? Have you worked with moms that struggle with this oh?
Speaker 1:yes, oh, yes, oh yes. And the thing that I get that breaks my heart, because I would say all of these times these moms are really genuinely good moms, but they are being very hard on themselves and one of the things they say that really breaks my heart is I'm traumatizing my kid. I hear that you know, and I try to remind them like, yes, it wasn't okay that you raised your voice today, you know, and because when they tell you the incident, clearly it was a mistake, you know, or something they forgot. So I always also like to remind people, and this is where things get really hard.
Speaker 1:Some of my mistakes are incredibly ugly. Some of my mistakes are not cute. For an example, I know I said this twice already, so you can see how I really like to be on time to places. I was late for 20 minutes here. It's a silly mistake, right? Of course, you and I both know, of course, but not all my mistakes are silly. Not all my mistakes are adore, like, like it's. Like. I have your sympathy because you can tell oh, she made that mistake, because she really cares to be on time, like it's almost like you have sympathy for yourself, right, yes, yes for yourself.
Speaker 1:So some of the mistakes can almost get people's respect yeah, right, and some of the mistakes we make are going to be genuinely uncomfortable to talk about. So I don't deny that sometimes the mistakes we make as a parent is very disappointing. I don't deny or I don't sugarcoat that, because I don't think that's how we're going to build resilience, right. But I do tell them there's a difference between, yes, that moment was really something we really cannot repeat in terms of like shouting or you know shouting or you know, um, taking something away. That was like what's how the saying goes?
Speaker 2:like uh the punishment doesn't match the crime.
Speaker 1:Right like okay, you took something away that doesn't really match the crime. Like you know, they didn't need to be ground. I had a client once and, uh, she struggled with so much people pleasing and really so sad when she was growing up, like her parents would ground her for weeks, you know, and when you look at that extent, like geez, it didn't need her weeks, yeah, yeah how old was?
Speaker 1:she like seven eight and for things like you said earlier. Ironically it's so, it's all full circle and it's so universal. It will be for things that are not cleaning up, you know, and then you wonder why those things have really scarred us. So, going back to our, to moms out there that struggling with not being good enough, I really want us to first remember that it's not like we're traumatizing our kid. Let's not be extra punitive towards our mistakes.
Speaker 2:Catastrophizing. Yes, it goes back to what you were saying. We tend to think the worst.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'd like to add to that because and I don't know how this is going to sound, but a really I think that those moms that tend to feel that way about themselves are genuinely the really really good moms. Yes, yes, there's something about guilt. Like we might look at it as a negative, but I think that guilt works in so many different ways and sometimes it could mean that we're just really really good moms and we want to do the best. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And it goes back to like as I know, you feel the same way, holding space for our feelings. Yeah, I don't shy away from sitting with disappointment and guilt.
Speaker 2:How did you overcome that not sitting away from it?
Speaker 1:I I I think that, like as you just mentioned it, you have to, I think, through mindfulness, notice where it's becoming toxic, because it's not healthy to sit, and I'm just figuratively saying like to sit feeling guilty for hours and hours or days.
Speaker 1:Yeah I mean that's dwelling at some point that's dwelling. And you know, at some point what I like to call people like is it warranted? It's an? You know, is it a warranted guilt or an unwarranted guilt?
Speaker 1:And I also tell people, like we often make mistakes we never thought we would make. You know, we don't plan the mistakes. Again, I'm talking about like a healthy average, you know person. I'm not, you know, extreme cases here. But, like you said, when we are a kind human being, we don't plan our mistakes. So we have to give ourselves that compassion that we made mistakes we didn't think we were going to make. You know we don't wake up and say I'm going to lose my temper on my kid today. Of course it happened unexpectedly, yeah, and so take accountability, learn from it. That's when I become a very solution oriented, like what do you have to have in place next time? So do you want to wake up half an hour before your child wakes up? That's one of my favorite coping skills, by the way, as a parent, you must always wake up before your kids.
Speaker 2:And it drives me crazy. It's so helpful.
Speaker 1:People wake up at the same time as their kids and I'm like no wonder you're in a bad mood.
Speaker 2:Like, the last thing I want is someone's attention or someone's need, when I just woke up and haven't even washed my face. Yeah, absolutely wake up before your kid. Yeah, how can look? A lot of parents struggle with this, though. What help. What has helped you with this goal? I mean it's you. You said you wake up. Uh, how many, how much earlier, like an hour yes, an hour.
Speaker 1:I mean the more I can wake up. I mean the days that I used to do even an hour and a half was amazing. But and sometimes, like again, this is where Do the best you can, because there are days I wake up just like 20 minutes before her Right Like, is that ideal? Like in terms of like, when I look at my like what I could do. Of course, 20 minutes goes by super fast. 20 minutes is like I brush my hair. The next thing you know her alarm is going off, but it's like do whatever you can in a given moment. So I think that another thing we often get very rigid or get paralyzed by is well, all week long I haven't been really waking up before my child. Why bother this morning?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that mentality.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about that. Yes, honestly, I feel like it's that all or nothing mentality I don't like to like. I'm not trying to like, sum it up to these like known terminologies, but it really feels like that's what it is. It's this black or white. Yes, what's the point?
Speaker 1:So how do you talk to someone like that, or like clients that people would say, like, why bother with 20 minutes? If you think an hour is a good time, what's the 15 minutes going to do? And that's when I say progress over perfection, like a little bit today, because that's also the reality of our human behavior is that you have to, you know, teach yourself a trick that is doable and then add to it the next day. Right, like, if you can wake up 10 minutes before your kid today, that's going to be, that's more likely to be 20 next week, because increments gradual improvement. But sometimes I think we also want maybe quick wins and that immediate gratification or immediate reward, and we maybe undermine or devalue the value of consistent progress. Just wake up 10 minutes before your kid tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's simple, it's not difficult, but what is it about that, that we don't think that it is easy? I, I, I guess I could also um, because moms are watching they're gonna be like oh, she thinks it's so easy, let her have a newborn oh gosh, I mean, don't get me wrong newborn and your daughter is still. You're gonna get those that's why I want to clarify that. Hey, maybe it's not for the new mate. Everyone's different. Well, something is better than nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I will come down to. Something is better than nothing, even if that means you have five minutes um alone time in the bathroom in the middle of the day. That's's better than nothing, right? And five minutes before you know, waking up five minutes before your child, is better than nothing. I think we have to be honest with ourselves, that it's not about this situation or that situation. It's our internal dialogue that says why bother if it's not going to be this way? Why bother if I'm not going to wake up an hour before my kid? Why bother if I'm not going to? Like health-wise, I think it's so important to be outside, it's so important to get some movement in our bodies, whether you want to dance or stretch or go for a run. One of the most common things we get is well, why do it once if I can't do it three times a week?
Speaker 2:So what you're saying is yes yeah, it's, even that one time is something exactly.
Speaker 1:It's something and you're more likely to go to two times a week if you have established one time a week. That's the reality that we don't want to face that. You see. One of the things I also like to talk to people about when it comes to perfectionism as you said, it's very task-oriented most definitely is that there's a difference between overworking and doing the work, and we are. We sometimes don't want to do the work. That's doing the work Going for a walk once a week.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:That's interesting.
Speaker 2:Can you say that again? Which part? That part? That's fascinating. So sometimes, when we don't want to do the work technically, we are doing the work because we're self-caring. Is that what I heard you say I wanted?
Speaker 1:people to know that doing the work because we're self-caring is that what I heard you say. I wanted people to know that doing the work sometimes means small steps towards the bigger goal. Uh-huh, right that any, any step you can take is doing the work, because people again go from zero to 100. They don't do anything and then they overdo things and then they get burned out and they have nothing left to give for a whole month, for a whole week, for the whole weekend, and then they go back to that kind of like that rabbit thing or hamster on a wheel.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:They go 100 miles an hour. So they're constantly overdoing things and getting burned out. Overdoing things and getting burned out Versus you got to do the work and I think what I have lately been really looking at is consistency. Not so much as motivation, or maybe small work like staying consistent with something Mm-hmm. Not so much as motivation, or maybe small work like staying consistent with something.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, very important. Yeah, do you want to answer some questions? Oh, yes, I just random, but I was like, oh my God, there's so many and I really want to answer them because there's a lot. Okay, where's the post? Are you ready? I am the first one. Let me click. See it all. Okay, is being a perfectionist connected to OCD? This is from Lucine. I love that question.
Speaker 1:The reason I love that question. This is where I'm going to get a little clinical. I specialize in OCD. I've been specializing in it since 2019. It's something that I'm very passionate about and I take it very seriously, because one of the things that's I know there's so much awareness on mental health but there's still so much stereotype and like this idea that like, oh, I'm so OCD.
Speaker 1:I like my shoes, you know, like yes, like no, we are not all OCD. So that's why I'm like I love this question and I love, I love working with people who struggle with OCD. The way I can answer that question is that being a perfectionist does not mean you have OCD. But most people like I'm talking about like 9 out of 10 people who have OCD, diagnosed with OCD yes, they are diagnosed with OCD. Yes, they are diagnosed with OCD. Most of them will say they have perfectionistic tendencies because doing things perfectly like let's again, this is going to be a bit stereotypical.
Speaker 1:Example OCD, but it's easy to for people to understand hand washing. If part of your OCD, one of your compulsions, is to wash your hands excessively, what happens in that vicious cycle is that you want to do it perfectly to feel clean. So perfectionism ends up being a part of the OCD cycle to make the person feel like they are completing their compulsions perfectly. So it's more like perfection is an add-on to OCD. But perfectionism as myself have struggled with it I don't have OCD, I struggle with anxiety and of course I have, you know, different life experiences, but that's how I can separate the two. That if you have perfectionism does not mean you have OCD. But when you have OCD, most often you have that perfectionistic tendencies.
Speaker 2:Versus actual diagnosis? Yes, yes, caroline wants to know does bring a perfectionist mean I have a validation issue and insecurity? Does, I guess, being a perfectionist mean I have validation and issues of insecurities? Thank you for the question. I love it. Yes, can you tell us more about that?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and here's why I would say yes to that. Not because obviously I don't say like, oh, you have that problem, it's more like perfectionism. Actually, this will be something that we haven't really touched on. It's also important to look at perfectionism as a coping mechanism and it's for some of us when you mentioned trauma earlier, internally self-doubt I can quote unquote tame my insecurity is by doing things perfectly and making sure I don't get fined out, exposed right Exposed exactly.
Speaker 1:So most perfectionists and there's, you know, I've read wonderful books on this struggle with imposter syndrome, fear of being fraud, fraudulent and feeling like we don't deserve what we have. Wow, which doesn't match, because everyone will say you know, you earned, you worked really hard for it, you earned it. But our internal inner critic will shut those compliments down really quickly. So the validation unfortunately becomes this race without a finish line. There's not enough validation to shut down my inner voice, my goodness that's pretty powerful, it's very debilitating.
Speaker 2:Yes, very debilitating. I can imagine. Yeah Well, Caroline, I hope you had your question answered and hope it's helpful. Luz wants to know is perfectionism due to childhood trauma? Wow, we have a lot of questions of this. Actually, we have like four of the same question.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is it related to childhood trauma For some people? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It is yeah it could be. Absolutely, If you have childhood trauma, as I just mentioned. If you have childhood trauma, as I just mentioned, it puts you at risk of developing perfectionism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I can imagine if someone, a child, is being abused because things are not done the way that mom wants or dad, and so, yeah, you can develop that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, here's another version of it that I can maybe share with people and it's not, maybe. I don't know what people consider trauma, because you and I know good enough to pay them for their sacrifices.
Speaker 1:So it's not good enough that I just went to law school. I have to become the best lawyer in Los Angeles. It's not good enough that I went to. You know, get this degree or that degree. I must open the best business under that. You know industry. So and again, when you look at that high achieving Are you there too? We just look at each other and we're like I know, sister, I get you, that's me. Yes, we just had like instant eye connection.
Speaker 2:I know that's me. Yes, we just had like an instant eye connection. I know we really did yes. Yeah, that's powerful.
Speaker 1:You see, it's not maybe trauma, as some people may think of it, but it's a childhood experience that does shape our perfectionism and, again, the belief is my parents sacrificed so much for myself and my siblings to have the life we have. Yeah, to come here. I must make it worthwhile. Yeah, that's the false belief behind it and we forget, and maybe sometimes parents because they are responsible, I mean, they do have a role in this they fail to communicate to their children that all they want is their children to be happy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they want is their children to be happy. Yeah, but I think also parents had to be conscious to communicate that I mean you can't, oh, yeah, right, like they tried their best, and I mean they didn't know any better? Not, we know now. Yeah, studying and education helps yeah, I have few clients.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, they are well established in these occupations that they don't want to do it. They're not fulfilled.
Speaker 2:That's so true. That's so true. Just to make mom and dad happy. Yes, that's really sad, breaks my heart. Another question is from Anna how do I not get angry when the house is in utter chaos? Food on the floor, drawings on the wall, that's it and sad faces.
Speaker 1:So why do you get angry, right, like, why do you look at that situation and do we get angry? Because we have you ever told your client like this is one of the questions I sometimes love to ask, because I say sometimes because I think it has to be at the right moment, but I often ask them that thought in your head, whose voice is it?
Speaker 2:who does it belong to?
Speaker 1:yes, and it's often again I'm a mom so I am mom's boy, I'm a mom, I'm a feminist, I love woman, I love supporting woman. But I am gonna go for mom right now for a minute. When you're in your living room right now and there's food everywhere, toys everywhere, whatever, the kitchen table is all messy, needs to be cleaned up the voice in your head is your mom-in-law, maybe, right, mother-in-law, your mom, your older sister, maybe that's so powerful you're so right that says what is this?
Speaker 1:this is messy. Can I tell you a story of my mom is gonna my, please, we're all about the story my daughter was um, so my daughter was born in january, so this might have been like spring, like april, may, right? She's only four or five months old and you know, uh, it's all like it's hot outside, or at least it's warm outside, and her feet are cold, right like that.
Speaker 1:Four or five months her feet are cold and she goes you gotta put some socks on her. You gotta put some socks on her. I'm like mom, it's 70 degrees outside, I'm not gonna put socks on her. You know what she says to me? She's like oh, you're raising her like an american oh my god and I like, till this day I'm like, am I supposed to be offended? You know so. Do you see? That's obviously. I say this to the story because my mom, like, is my best friend.
Speaker 2:I love her so much but these things stay with you, they, they stay with you right.
Speaker 1:It's that mom's voice that says why aren't the shoes put away? It's mom's voice that says, um, you got that McDonald's again, you know or you got them you know whatever, you ordered food again. So I'm afraid, when you find yourself frustrated in a moment, as part of self compassion is to honor the feeling you're having, but then ask yourself why am I getting angry right now and whose voice this is?
Speaker 2:And whose voice is that? Wow, I think that is the most powerful question that any person can ask themselves in times of this. Exactly her question. Like house is a mess, yeah, you know, and there's chaos.
Speaker 1:That sounds like you guys are having a fun time over there. There you go. You guys are having a fun time over there, but why is it?
Speaker 2:such a negative right Like what's really going on? Yes, Well, anna, I hope that's helpful. And then we have Christine. She's asking when does perfectionism create more harm than good? At what point?
Speaker 1:I know I'm going to sound biased when I say this, but I wholeheartedly believe in this, which is why I speak about overcoming perfectionism. It always will. It will never end well, but you're right, it's a matter of when, and sometimes our perfectionism can hijack things right away, like a month into a new job, right A month into a new relationship. You might find yourself ruminating, and I have young women dating and you know, seeking therapy for dating and a lot of their anxious attachment is leading to this rumination and worrying and like kind of like over playing conversations in their heads to see who said what and how did they handle it. So I have to. I am going to stick to my guns on this one that perfectionism never ends well, because I think one of the conversations I sometimes get on social media is there's healthy perfectionism, there's positive perfectionism? And my answer is no.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Can you tell us why you believe that there's a no?
Speaker 1:Because let's not dilute the conversation right. Let's not say, do we and I feel like you had a conversation like this on social media once Like there's no such thing as healthy addiction, there's no such thing as healthy depression, there's no such thing as healthy anorexia, like with those things. We're very cut and dry and I think we should have the same boundaries and same stand when it comes to perfectionism. And so what I like to encourage people to do is perfectionism is having unrealistically high expectations of yourself. That causes all of the things we talked about resentment, people-pleasing and other issues in your life. Opposite is striving for your excellence, striving for your best with an understanding that mistakes are going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, that's the only key difference between perfectionism versus healthy goal setting, healthy relationships, healthy boundaries is knowing that in relationships, we will disappoint each other, we will say the wrong thing, but it's all about how fast can we turn it around? Like, as a parent, you're going to make mistakes. I never again. Like I was saying earlier, I don't sugarcoat to my client that, yeah, the way you spoke to your child wasn't in their best development and it wasn't aligning with your values. But again, when you can tolerate that the house is going to be messy sometimes. You can tolerate that some days you're going to wake up an hour before your kids, and other days it's going to be five minutes. Then life goes on.
Speaker 2:With this question also comes this idea for me. You brought up a really good point. You said tolerate the word, the word tolerate yeah, that is probably the most difficult thing Now. You don't have to be perfectionist or have the mindset to, but it's really difficult for mothers, some fathers, to stay with the feelings of oh, it's a mess.
Speaker 2:This is a mess, the house is a mess, or even sometimes. Well, this is a different topic, but I'll stick with this. How can we I mean, like, what advice would you give somebody on how to tolerate that mess? Like, for instance, house is a mess, it's a chaos. This voice is telling me clean up, clean up, because you're going to get judged, or whoever's voice is in there. And how can you tolerate that messy house? How can you tolerate it for an hour, two hours, maybe a day or two?
Speaker 1:One of the things I love is actions first, feeling, second. Actions first, feeling, second. So act the part. I know when I say this to people, they often say, oh, you mean like fake it till you make it. Not necessarily because I personally and I'm curious what you think about this but I don't like that saying fake it till you make it, because I don't like the idea of faking it. I instead like to and I know this may sound like, oh, you're just playing with a bunch of words, but I do think that there's another way to approach this, which is I want to act the way.
Speaker 1:I want to become right, I want to act. I may not be that person yet, but I want to act the part, because only through repetitive actions will I really become that person that I want to be. So I want to become a tolerant person. I need to act the part, because only through repetitive actions will I really become that person that I want to be. So I want to become a tolerant person. I need to act the part. What would it look like for you to be a tolerant person? You're not there yet, because if you tell me from one to ten, how much are you tolerating this messy room. I'll tell you zero. I have zero tolerance for this right now, but I still want your action to not match your feelings. Just because you can't tolerate, it doesn't mean you can't. So again, I'm sorry, I'm like I'll get to the point because it's so good, okay that's why what does it mean to tolerate it?
Speaker 1:sit on the floor in the middle of those toys, expose yourself again, have your action, because again I'm going to put myself in those shoes and I'm going to imagine that I'm in my living room and it's messy. If I can't tolerate it which is a feeling I can't tolerate it what do I do? I clean up? Yes, I cannot tolerate it. And not clean up like my actions can go opposite of my feelings. So it's like you. I cannot tolerate the room being messy, like inside it, eating me up, which is how she might feel yes, it's a feeling like I feel annoyed, I feel uh like a bad mom fidgety?
Speaker 1:yes, I feel yes, I feel I. It's just the sucky feeling I have inside, but I'm still gonna crisscross applesauce and sit on the floor with my kid.
Speaker 2:Okay, and that's so doable and maybe do snow angels with the dirty clothes that's around me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, make it worse Exactly. Put it over your head, put the you know socks on your hands like mittens.
Speaker 2:But that's doable though, because as you said in the beginning, we tend to like dramatize everything at times, so yeah, it is a feeling, and if you can tolerate it, stick with it. Maybe do you think that that's going to teach you. What's that going to teach you?
Speaker 1:Yes, Because when actions come first, it changes your feeling. Here's the other problem, and this is going to go back to a little bit like goal setting conversation. But one of the reasons people procrastinate is because they want their feeling state to change before they can take an action. So many people tell me I don't feel motivated. I don't feel motivated and to some extent I know this is not going to sound very compassionate, but, mind you, I have a good relationship with my client when I say this. Of course I told them forget about feeling motivated. You got to do what you got to do. That's why nike's just do it is such a great branding, because they know you just got to do it. You can. The feelings will follow actions first, feeling second. So if you want to become a more tolerant person of some disorder in your house, especially by the time the end of the day, then act the part and it's not fake until you make it I'm gonna take that advice that's so powerful because I am one of those moms.
Speaker 2:My house has to be super clean and I just like that clean environment.
Speaker 1:I do too, but sometimes it's so hard yes yes, I'm gonna do action first, tolerate it and then because I I want to honor that I think psychological wellness can also come from having a home environment that is peaceful. Absolutely so I don't dismiss also that aspect of needing a living space, whether it's our bedroom or our living room. That is, within reasons, orderly. I do think that's part of self-care, I do think that's part of psychological wellness? Absolutely it is. But I also tell people your kids need a happy mom, not a perfect mom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was this. It was in frames, but it was a saying at HomeGoods. It said happy kids have moms that have sticky floors and dirty kitchens. Yep, it's something like that. I can't remember it verbatim, but it was so powerful I'm like this is so true. Yes, yes, sticky floors and dirty kitchens.
Speaker 1:It is what it is, messy rooms yep, it is temporary.
Speaker 2:I think that's also something that we have to remind ourselves, that you know, these things are temporary, they are going to grow up and we have to deal with the empty nest. Yes, feeling. Yeah, you know, so I think are you okay?
Speaker 1:Should I continue with the questions? I'm loving this.
Speaker 2:You're going to have to kick me out of here how to speed up an acceptance process in any situation. If you are a perfectionist, thanks from Mariam. Should I do?
Speaker 1:it again. No, I was going to ask your, maybe, interpretation. What do you think the question is? Speeding up the acceptance of a situation, a person, an imperfection?
Speaker 2:How to speed up an acceptance process in any situation. If you are a perfectionist, I guess, Maybe how to accept. Oh my God, it's hard to understand it, kind of.
Speaker 1:Because my mind is going in so many different scenarios right now and I want to be mindful of, maybe, what they had in their heart when they were asking this question.
Speaker 2:Should we Face things? What do you mean by? Do you want to?
Speaker 1:text us or I just like hit your microphone. Um, it's okay. I think one of the things that's coming up for me is this idea that, um, there's a saying that said suffering comes from resisting the present moment. Oh, yes, right, so maybe again this is going to be a bit general, so I want to own that, but I could definitely encourage people to consider how often acceptance is a choice we have to make and we're choosing not to accept. Not because we want to stay in pain.
Speaker 1:I do believe at some level we are really hurt by the way things have unfolded, so it's hard to accept. But when I remind myself, suffering happens when you resist the present moment then I find myself surrendering. So acceptance, I think, goes hand in hand with surrendering. And also, once you accept things as they are one of my other, you know, genuine philosophy in life is once you accept things as you are, as things as, as as things are, you can then focus on what you want to change. Okay, like you know, you didn't get that job right or this relationship ended so many of us, unfortunately, because of grief and loss. I understand that piece of it and I don't mean to rush anybody's process when I say this, but we are living in the, the past, when we don't accept things as they are. Yes, you know, at some point we have to accept them as they are so that we can um pure our energy into what we might want to do next.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's powerful yeah, my acceptance, a gift you're giving yourself, just like forgiveness I mean, what would it look like?
Speaker 2:I would ask people to kind of think about this. What would it look like if you never did? What are the consequences, what are the pros and cons of not? Yeah, you know the suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as we talked about like and look again. I go back to like, internal dialogue. If I'm not accepting something, most likely the thought I'm having is this shouldn't have happened. Right, the mistake, the hiccup, the disappointment, the breakup. It shouldn't have happened and it's like you are now fighting against something that's already happened. That's when, like, accepting things as they are is a gift you can give to yourself for peace of mind and also to move forward. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things I wanted to briefly dive into is I know you guys, there's so many good ones I'm not going to get to all of them, unfortunately, but this one thing that I think is important, that probably will be really helpful to a lot of people out there is this people pleasing process. Yeah, how where can they start to not people-please, like, where's the start so that they can? Obviously reaching out is important and help and guidance and very, but what other steps can they take for the people who maybe they can't afford therapy or they can't? What can they do? How can they tackle that people-pleasing behavior? Books, reading, I don't know, acceptance, maybe?
Speaker 1:again, absolutely. I think it starts with what you just said, though. What are their behaviors? You just said people-pleasing behaviors, so I do think that we all need to decide, or maybe reflect on, what are my top three. Decide or maybe reflect on what are my top three? You?
Speaker 1:know, maybe most common or most recent people pleasing behavior. Yes, that's the other thing that changes, right, we go through seasons and today, how I might be people pleasing may look different than what I did six months ago. So I do think that every person first needs to tell me let's start with easy, like two things, two ways that you are people pleasing, because for some people again, it might be that I say yes to everything, but for somebody else it could be that, well, I don't tell people how things make me feel. Yes, those are two different things. They are. Saying yes versus no is so different than expressing my feelings. Very true, right. So it does start with identifying.
Speaker 2:I love that that's not powerful. I don't know what it is. Yes, understanding how you're people pleasing. Yes, what style? What's, what's the way? Yeah, and it is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's the way? So you kind of also have a direction that way. Yeah, you do.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, there's also a little too much information out there where you can just Google and write people pleasing, podcast, people pleasing, you know YouTube video, and you will come handful of information out there and you don't know which one is relevant to you and if you're watching something that doesn't really speak to what you're struggling with. What happens is that you get shut shut down. Yes, you say, oh, this is not going to help me, I'm overwhelmed by this information, and then you kind of like, stop your growth process because you weren't. Look, you're not sure what you're looking for, true. So again, if you say, okay, you know what? Again, let's take the typical one. I'm a people pleaser that I always say yes to things. Now, we know what. To Google, look up ways to say no. And then I go back to my behavioral roots here and I do tell people you have to say no to two things a day. You can't just say I'm going to start saying no, yeah, immediately.
Speaker 2:Immediately. Yes, start little by little.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm all about like even small things, like when I was getting better at confronting people. I started text messages.
Speaker 2:I started through text messages Writing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, it was a good way. And I still, till this day, if I have to call somebody and if I have to talk to them, I still role play what I'm going to say, I still rehearse how I want to. Yes, cause I get you know, I get worried, I can get nervous, I can, you know, obviously like create scenarios in my head. So start small. You can always say no via text message.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:And the other thing I love is, if you're going to start saying no, I think again. There's so many information out there you can just Google it Ways to say no, have you seen this one? It's one of my favorite. Instead of telling somebody sorry I'm late, say thank you for waiting for me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for waiting on me, yeah.
Speaker 1:So also look up ways to say no, that's assertive, that's not passive.
Speaker 2:One thing that I've learned from my lifetime, my experience, is learning to be more into myself and my needs and being more conscious of what I want and speaking up even if it's someone hurting me and just really vocalizing how I feel.
Speaker 2:Even if it's someone hurting me and just really vocalizing how I feel, I have learned that this journey you lose a lot of people around you when you become that version of yourself. Yeah, and this is something that I have worked with, people that have also identified like my friends don't want to be my friends anymore, my relatives don't call me as much anymore. Well, you're changing and they're used to this other side of you. So when you're more authentic and vocal, it's going to come out as very aggressive and angry when in reality, it's not.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, people are not changing with you. That's the part of the problem. Because if they also are changing and again it's not up to us how they should change, and again it's not up to us how they should change but if other people also do the work, do the inner work, then we do grow in the same direction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think that also, when people are more conscious and aware, they have respect for your change and if they love you and they love your true essence and you have meaning to their life, they will accept this change in you and they'll respect this change.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it made me think of next time. If someone says to you, they look at you and they say, oh, you changed, you changed you say thank you, yeah, I know. Yes, I'm proud of it. I wanted to change exactly yes, thank you for recognizing.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank god, you saw it yeah, and if that person the scary thing is people won't say you changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the scary thing.
Speaker 2:No, they'll say behind your back probably. Oh yeah, she's so different you know, and it's like we, we also have to be comfortable with losing people in our lives. That, yes, that's what I think. I don't know I'm tying this together. But breaking up with perfectionism also means changing your environment, that people also have to be comfortable with that right absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because I think whatever you're working on changing in your life, obviously for the better, you have to realize the environment you were in was integrated into that old version of you, right Like so even your house, or even the people in your house, or even the work routine. Things have to change with you. That's why I think I was trying to say, if other people also did the work like, people have to change with you and things have to change with you. That's the beauty, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, as you know, like, our environment shapes our behavior. So if you want our behavior to change, our environment has to change too, of course it does. Otherwise our behavior will go back to the older version if the environment doesn't change. So when I look at it that way, I don't find it. I don't find it. I guess that intimidating, yeah, it isn't right, it's liberating. It's liberating, it's very liberating.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, this has been a good almost hour and a half. It's been amazing it goes by so fast when you're having like an awesome conversation with beautiful, intelligent women. I appreciate you. I've learned a lot from you, as I'm sure the audience has too. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me here, absolutely, by the way, I I'm gonna reveal it on on air that you're half turkish oh yes which is so cool we were talking, I was chatting, I'm like, oh my god, I wonder how people are gonna feel, because it's there's this, um, there's this anger amongst people and there's definitely, you know, things that are happening. I'm not going to get into politics because it gets really icky and sticky, but I really appreciate that about you. Like you were so like open about your culture and where you came from, and I respect that and I'm like really, really grateful that two women can get together like this, from different backgrounds.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, because we have more common than we may, than the countries. Yes, yes For sure. And it takes us to come together, heal, connect, empower, support, love on each other.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Your mom is Turkish, yes, your dad's Armenian, yes, did they meet in Istanbul?
Speaker 1:They did meet in Istanbul. So I mean my whole family is from Istanbul, my dad's side obviously.
Speaker 2:Do you have family there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they all. You know my roots are in Istanbul and they knew each other from childhood. So and then, but still, when they got married, there were a few family members that didn't come to the ceremony. Was everybody, okay with their marriage.
Speaker 2:Like was there? Like, oh my God, she's Turkish or he's Armenian. Was there that controversy ever?
Speaker 1:Some family members felt that way, but my parents didn't care yeah good Good for them, right. Yes, I honestly feel like I'm a melting pot some days. Like my mom is Turkish, my dad is Armenian, my name is actually a Persian name yeah, it is, but I have no background in that way, so it's a good reminder that there's so much beauty and richness in all of us. There is. You speak full Turkish I do. Does your daughter A little bit?
Speaker 2:A little bit, are you teaching?
Speaker 1:her. I try, I try, but my husband is American. Speaking again, the melting pot here. Have you guys been back?
Speaker 2:yes, have you seen Istanbul?
Speaker 1:oh yes, I took him there twice, yeah nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so beautiful. Yes, alright, I just wanted to get that out there. Thank you, but it's part of who you are. It is, and that's important for me it is and it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you holding that space, because you know, you speaking of being your authentic self. You sometimes shy parts of you that I know.
Speaker 1:You know that may not be welcome, so I appreciate you feel that that way most of the time that's not because you're turkish you know, I again this is part of sometimes, like you read the rooms right and sometimes we walk on eggshells, unfortunately, making sure not to upset people, especially because of the political climate. I don't. I understand where people are upset about and where they have a lot of feelings, but yeah, sometimes you try to.
Speaker 2:Just want to let them know that there is a Turkish woman and an Armenian woman in the room, yes, and discussing perfectionism. If that's not power, I don't know what is Thank you for today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:You're so welcome. Thank you, oh my God, that was so good Thank you.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that was so good, thank you.