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The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast
Welcome to "The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast," the podcast where insightful conversations unfold, and the depth of the human mind is explored. In each episode, I sit down with a diverse range of individuals—thinkers, innovators, and captivating personalities—who share their unique insights and experiences. Together, we embark on a journey of discovery, unraveling the complexities of the human psyche and uncovering the untold truths that influence our thoughts, emotions, and behaviors.
The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast
Natalie Jambazian | Narcissism, Trauma Bonding, Self-Love | The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast #20
Discover the real face of narcissism and arm yourself with the knowledge to identify and break free from narcissistic abuse in our latest episode. We have the privilege of hosting licensed marriage and family therapist Natalie Jambazian, who sheds light on the traits of narcissists and the dangerous dynamics they create in relationships. From lack of empathy and pathological lying to the devastating effects of trauma bonding, Natalie offers invaluable insights and red flags to watch for, helping you recognize narcissistic behavior early and take steps to protect yourself.
This episode doesn't shy away from the harsh realities of loving a narcissist and the significant mental and physical toll this can take on victims. We dissect the manipulative tactics employed by both covert and overt narcissists, such as love bombing, devaluation, and discard, and explore how these patterns create a cycle of abuse that's incredibly hard to break. But break it you can, and we provide strategies to help you do just that, including recognizing the false hope that a narcissist will change, and the importance of understanding that the problem lies with the abuser, not the victim.
We also look at cultural and societal factors that can contribute to narcissistic tendencies, particularly in Middle Eastern and Indo-European communities. Natalie discusses the pressures and generational trauma that can foster these behaviors and offers coping strategies for those who feel trapped. From inner child work to setting non-negotiables in relationships, we chart a path to self-love and recovery. Whether you're navigating a narcissistic relationship or supporting someone who is, this episode provides a roadmap to healing and empowerment.
I know this is really hard for people to hear, but narcissists won't ever change. I've never met a narcissist that I heard has changed.
Speaker 2:I've heard a lot of women say it's not fair, because if I leave him, what if another woman gets the better version? What the?
Speaker 1:hell is that Parents are a mirror to their kids. They have to take care of themselves so that the kids see that and repeat healthier patterns.
Speaker 2:He said which hand do you write with? I said my right. He said with your left hand. Try to write what your inner child wants to tell you. With your left hand it's going to come off. You know weird, and you're not probably going to understand it. You're not going to write it. Well, and with your right hand, try to write to your inner child what you want to tell it.
Speaker 1:One of the main components of being in these types of relationships. You're going to realize nothing you do is good enough. You please them. They want more. You don't please them. Why aren't you pleasing me?
Speaker 2:Hello everyone. Today is all about narcissism. Today's episode is actually very special because I feel like this word is used profusely and out of context. Actually, because every other person that hurts us or we see a little bit of selfishness, immediately we jump to thinking he's a narcissist or she's a narcissist.
Speaker 2:I invited Natalie Jambazian, licensed marriage and family therapy and narcissistic recovery coach. She works with a lot of women who are coming out of narcissistic relationships. She helps them really find their essence again, and this conversation that I had with her was really special intense in a way, but very special because we did learn what narcissism is, so that we don't label everybody with this word. So it was. It was very special to hear her research. She is an author now. She did write her book and and I'm just so proud of her and I can't wait for you guys to get your hands on her book she is going to release it very soon and I'm really, really grateful that she joined me today.
Speaker 2:So today's episode again, is all about narcissism and what it is. What is a true narcissist? What is a gaslighter? How can you detect a narcissist? What can you do if you are in a relationship with one? What can you do if you're recovering from a relationship from a narcissist, what that withdrawal is like, what the recovery is like, everything and anything narcissism related. So enjoy this episode and make sure to subscribe to this channel.
Speaker 1:Enjoy. With Natalie Jambazian talking about this topic.
Speaker 2:I know I love your Instagram and it's actually really relatable and it's it's when you. When I look at your Instagram, I always learn something.
Speaker 2:And I think that's really important, yeah, especially when you're pointing out like narcissistic, like those videos. Yeah, it's really really, really important that therapists like put a fun twist to it, so I love that. Thank you, of course, natalie. Tell us a little bit about this word narcissist, like I think it's thrown around tremendously and we were talking earlier you said it's misused and I loved how you said it takes away from people who actually have experienced it. Yeah, so what is it narcissist exactly? How can we tell that a person is a narcissist?
Speaker 1:Yeah, good question. Like you said, the term is overused. So I think that because it's overused, it takes away the credibility of a survivor who actually is dealing with narcissistic abuse. So in order to understand narcissism, I would say it's on a spectrum, a wide spectrum. Not every person is going to have narcissistic personality disorder, but they will have some sort of traits of a narcissist. So, for example, lack of empathy, for example, is part of narcissism. Lack of responsibility or accountability. They're very grandiose in the way they show off or see things. They're also pathological liars. There's so many traits there that we can get into.
Speaker 1:But you asked me another question. You said how could you tell? Well, it's really hard to tell sometimes, and other times it might not be. You know, sometimes you look at someone on TV and you're like, oh, this is pure narcissism, right. But there's other version of narcissism, which is the covert version. Oh, the victim, right? Is that what it is? They victimize themselves. But covert narcissist is, I always say, is a person who has two masks. One they show to the public that they are kind, caring, compassionate, loving Wow, this person is so great. But behind closed doors is a different mask Someone who is cold, someone who is rude and insulting to their partner.
Speaker 2:I want to understand this a little bit more and help our audience understand this a little bit more. People misuse this word constantly, so I want to dive a little bit deeper into like what are the red flags? Like if you're in a relationship and you see something's off but you can't really like understand what's going on. Like what are the red flags of a narcissist? Like how can you tell and save yourself from being in a relationship with someone who is actually it's really hard to tell the red flags from the beginning, when you start dating them.
Speaker 1:The red flags come later, when the narcissist already kind of like sucked the person in. That's when the red flags come in and I think a lot of survivors, whether listening to this or have a person in their lives that going through this, they would understand, because the red flags don't show up. And it would be easy if it shows up, right, because then you can leave the relationship. It's when you're sucked in, you're trauma bonded and it's hard to leave.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is intense. What is this trauma bond? Tell us, educate us about that.
Speaker 1:So the trauma bond is basically this addiction that you feel in a narcissistic relationship. You're bonded by the abuse, unfortunately, and it's hard to leave. And I think that people, certain people, are like why aren't they leaving? You know, like the abuse is there, they can't leave because they're bonded by them in this like in this chemically chemical way.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's definitely this, like the nervous system and chemically they're attached to this person. I always say that, like when you're in a narcissistic relationship, you're addicted. So when you leave, you're detoxing. So that's what trauma bond is. It's an addiction to a person.
Speaker 2:And what needs to happen in a person's life for them to be able to bond this traumatically to someone who's abusing them. It's interesting to me, yeah, what kind of a childhood right you think about.
Speaker 1:Oh, you mean like going back to yeah, like childhood.
Speaker 2:Why wouldn't a beautiful individual or a handsome individual be tied up to this type of abuse, like what needs to happen in a person's life, definitely? For them to be able to like this kind of behavior from another, this respect from another person.
Speaker 1:That's a good question. A lot of the work that I also do with my clients is going back to childhood and unpacking this childhood wound, as I call it, the inner child that's there and the inner child was not loved. There was no unconditional love, it was conditional.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so a lot of the survivors that I work with. They either have been gone through sexual abuse, they've had a narcissistic parent in their lives, and so they are attracted to narcissists as they get older, so that manifests later on in their adult relationships.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. So it's like a learned behavior in a way. It's not like a behavior, but it's like a need. You grow up with a narcissist parent and it's very familiar to you Exactly. So you tend to search for someone who has similar traits Subconsciously, subconsciously and you gravitate towards that. But then something happens when people who have been in relationships like this something switches on and they're like this isn't right, I feel off. Is it hard for them to understand that piece?
Speaker 1:Yeah, If somebody has been gaslit so many times, you know we were talking about. Like. Not every person who gaslights is a narcissist. Yes, Gaslighting is constant, constant manipulation.
Speaker 2:I want to kind of dive into that because I think it's actually. I'm very happy you brought this up because you're right. Anytime someone's manipulated or gaslighted, immediately a person goes to oh my God, that's a narcissist. How many times does a person need to be manipulated and gaslighted? Immediately a person goes to oh my God, that's a narcissist. How many times does a person need to be manipulated and gaslighted? What's the cutoff for them to be like okay, this is a narcissist. There isn't.
Speaker 1:Wow. There isn't a cutoff with a narcissist. They constantly manipulate to get their needs met. They constantly lie, they constantly will tell lies and smear other people's name, like smear their romantic relationships so that they don't look like the bad person. They constantly victimize themselves. It's not once or twice, it happens over time, it happens forever, because the narcissists don't change. They don't really change.
Speaker 2:They are who they are, and I want to clarify this. People are not born with this personality disorder, correct? This is something developed in childhood.
Speaker 1:We don't have research that shows that it's part of DNA, but from the research that I have also done is narcissists become a narcissist when it is learned from childhood. So, for example, like you know, their parents put them on a pedestal and continue put them on a pedestal. They have this like godlike personality and that's one reason a narcissist becomes a narcissist. Another actually is when they're also sexually abused or verbally, psychologically, mentally abused growing up and they become a narcissist.
Speaker 1:And they grow up victimizing themselves, they grow up manipulating others, they grow up like just kind of lying to others as a way to cope.
Speaker 2:As a way to cope, like it's a coping mechanism, and then it develops to something even more serious.
Speaker 1:It's a mask because they're so insecure inside, deep inside, that they always have a mask on, and that mask is, I'm confident.
Speaker 2:I'm better than you. I was going to say. A lot of people say, oh, he's too confident. I've heard this before. Oh, he's too confident, he's such a narcissist. He's too confident. I've heard this before. Oh, he's too confident, he's just such a narcissist. So it's contrary, it's a narcissist, is deeply insecure.
Speaker 1:They're jealous, possessive. We were talking about the traits. Right, it's all coming. There's so much, there's so many traits. I think Not everyone is going to have the same exact traits, but there's a constant there which is controlling. They're very controlling and possessive. At times they isolate their victims.
Speaker 2:Isolate their victims.
Speaker 1:So what I mean by that is when you're in a narcissistic relationship. They start slowly isolating you from friends and family, right, and then all of a sudden you realize it just happens out of nowhere. You realize I haven't seen my friends and family in a long time.
Speaker 1:No one's around you either, because everybody else is fed up. You know, I get that. People are kind of fed up because you know they see the true nature of the relationship, whereas the victim has the rose-colored glasses and they have yet to see they have. The victim has the rose-colored glasses and they have yet to see. They have yet to remove the rose-colored glasses and actually see what their relationship is like versus how they want it to be.
Speaker 2:Why do they do this? Why do they isolate, why do they jeopardize relationships?
Speaker 1:To control their victim jeopardize relationships. To control their victim, to control them, to gaslight them so much that it makes the victim feel like they're going crazy.
Speaker 2:And so what I'm hearing you say is that the victim gets what the person wants from narcissists, which is what? What does the victim get in all of this? I'm curious, because that's a good question, because my mind goes to okay, you attract each other, right, like you attracted the narcissist and he attracted you. So what do you get out of this? What does the narcissist give you that you're in this relationship for a long time and you're? Is it like love, bombing you? I don't know, like what is it? Yeah, Love.
Speaker 1:I mean, yes, love bombing, but also future faking, Because when you want to be in a committed relationship and the other person is actually showing you they want to be in a committed relationship too. They're giving you also attention, they're bringing you around friends and family and you're thinking, wow, I feel special to this person. So the survivor, as I call it, idealizes the relationship and they don't really get anything out of it besides fake fakeness, but they can't see that it's hope.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, it's hope that things will change. It's hope that things will be better. It's hope that this idealized version of their future will come true.
Speaker 2:It is. I see that I see a lot of women in this hope he's going to change, and they stay for years and years and years, hoping, and sometimes even reaching out to a therapist themselves. I don't know if you've had this, but oh, you know, I want to come with my husband, but he's saying that I'm the crazy one. Yes, and it's so hard seeing beautiful women struggle in relationships like this, that hope really hit hard because, you're right, a lot of women sit in hope, hoping to change and their life is passing by. Yep, and there you go, 20 years and you're still with the narcissist. Now you have cancer, oh yeah, all kinds of medical issues.
Speaker 1:Actually, yeah, a lot of clients that I have have had autoimmune disorders or gastro issues, especially in women. I see that.
Speaker 2:Autoimmune in women. I see that Autoimmune right. I see that a lot like thyroid or lupus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of the hormones are off because of years and years of stress.
Speaker 2:You're right. So how can they leave relationships like this? So being conscious is number one.
Speaker 1:Being aware other than what it was. So being conscious is number one, being aware. Being aware and identifying their traits would be the first step. Identify what type of narcissist you're dealing with. What types are there? So I was talking about, like, the covert. I think those are the two main ones that I talk about. So covert is the one who has two masks. Overt narcissist is someone who is like very extravagant and like show off and, like you know, I have my Lamborghini outside of, in the front, I'll come pick you up and we'll go to like I don't know, like beyond I'm not, I'm not just trying to like, say, like everybody who has a Lamborghini, you know it's so much more than that.
Speaker 1:It's somebody who's grandiose, someone who is selfish. It's all about them. It's my way or the highway. They don't respect their partners at all. They insult their partners and they also devalue them. So when you were talking, about In public. Sometimes in public they also devalue workers like public workers. So you know, if somebody's an overt narcissist is when they're rude to like staff or they're rude to, you know, like someone serving.
Speaker 2:Because they see themselves better, or it's because of that insecurity?
Speaker 1:They see for overt narcissists. They feel like they're godlike and they feel like they can insult someone. They don't care. It's lack of empathy. Ultimately, they don't care.
Speaker 2:So what happens to women who leave relationships like this? The withdrawal?
Speaker 1:process. So the reason why people are trauma bonded is there's a cycle of abuse. You were talking about love bombing, right? So love bombing, you said, like how do people stay in this relationship? What do they get out of? Well, the love bombing is such a wonderful phase to be because the narcissist will like do extravagant gifts, maybe like I don't know, buy a trip somewhere or luxurious stuff, or like doesn't have to be big stuff, like it could be little things. Oh, you know, here's a flower. I thought of you.
Speaker 2:They know what you like, yeah, and they go after and pick your vulnerabilities, your vulnerabilities, oh my God. Yeah. And then after love, bombing it doesn't stop there.
Speaker 1:And then, after love bombing, it doesn't stop there. They start basically, once they suck you in, they start devaluing you.
Speaker 2:That destroys you. I can imagine how hard he would be to leave.
Speaker 1:You're a bad mom, you're crazy, right? Those are, like some of the phrases that narcissists have used.
Speaker 2:You're jealous, you're insane. I'm not doing anything. Yes, it's you.
Speaker 1:You're the problem'm not doing anything. Yes, it's you. You're the problem. That's devaluing, and then afterwards it's discard. So discard is when they basically go silent. They won't talk to you, they won't communicate with you, they won't take any responsibility around the house, even if they have kids. They won't take any responsibility around the house, even if they have kids. They'll be out, you know, doing business stuff, let's say, and not come home until later on. That's discarding, because then it makes the survivor feel like, oh, I must be wrong. Oh, no, you know what I mean, like it's punishment to the survivor. But guess what, as long as you're in the relationship, the cycle goes over and over again and then you're trauma bonded. You're trauma bonded by the cycle of abuse, believe it or not.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I don't even know where to begin with that one.
Speaker 1:It's tough, but it's important to know this, it's important to recognize this, because once you do, you're slowly taking the rose-colored glasses and be like, wow, so it's him, not me, it's not. And sure we can take responsibility for our childhood and say, yeah, we did choose a partner like this, that's for sure. Right, we can take responsibility and say, yes, I was attracted to this person.
Speaker 2:Now I'm not, because I see the real them. There's going to be so many viewers and they're going to relate, and I know they're going to relate. How can they work on this hope like this never ending hope he'll change, he's going to get better, and they're by these men, hoping that these men will change and they're even going to therapy together, but nothing's happening. Natalie, what advice can you give women that are in relationships like this and just never ending hope?
Speaker 1:I know this is really hard for people to hear, but narcissists won't ever change. I've never met a narcissist that I heard has changed and there are videos out there that shows. Like you know, it could be one in a million. But do you want to risk that? Do you have hope? And some people do have hope, well, my one is the million, that over a million, that, like they'll change, but they won't change, not for you, not for anyone else. They'll find another supply to feed their ego. They will.
Speaker 1:But I say, when you leave the relationship, you start learning to find like you start basically healing, because you're not healing in the relationship. Only after you leave a relationship you start detoxing. And the reason why I'd say detox is because you start becoming very anxious. Oh really, yeah, survivors become very, very anxious because there's this fear of the unknown right. They don't know what's going to happen. They thought they were going to be in this relationship for the rest of their lives, even married, let's say. People right, they have a hard time leaving because they're like what am I going to do?
Speaker 2:after I have kids. I've heard this yes, and I've heard this also. Okay, but is there other men out there? What if I don't get married? What if I you know I don't find another love? What if I don't find a boyfriend?
Speaker 1:It's like what do you? How do you help someone like that? You work through it with them with patience, because it's really hard for someone to just get over a relationship like that. It takes time because imagine being gaslit in a relationship. If you've been in a relationship for like 20 years let's say you're 20 years married to a narcissist it takes as much not as much time, but maybe half the time to really work through it, not to say you can't be in a relationship as you're healing. You can, but it takes a while to get to a place where you're not traumatized as much anymore and you really feel healed. Does it take a while? It takes time. It really depends on how long you've been in a narcissistic relationship. The longer you have, the longer it takes to heal.
Speaker 2:How dangerous can narcissists be Like?
Speaker 1:how dangerous. So the point of, like psychopathy, sociopathic? Yeah, so you're talking about different types of narcissists. Yes, okay, so the higher on the spectrum is the malignant narcissist.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the malignant narcissist is basically someone who is just like extreme, like, um, God-like behavior, that's, that's how I would. And people like this exist, yeah, yeah, they think they're God-like, they're you know. They don't follow rules, they think they're above the law. They're very controlling and possessive, To the point that, like I've heard people say, like they have taken out like the Wi-Fi in the house and like that's how isolating it could be, Very lonely. There's a movie if anybody gets to watch it old movie, it's called Gaslighting. I think it's called Gaslight. It's an old, like black and white movie and basically what it is is like this girl is in a relationship with a narcissist and the narcissist is very like victim mindset and he starts turning on and off the light to mess with her and made her feel like she's sick.
Speaker 1:And over time and she was like you know, I saw the light turning on and off and he's like, no, it didn't. What do you mean? I was here the whole time. He's like she's like, no, no, no, it was on and off. And imagine how many times this person got gaslit to the point that she thought she was going sick. She thought there was something wrong with her, that she's sick, that's what she thought. So imagine how much gaslighting can impact someone. It's terrible, so malignant. Narcissists gaslight all the time. It's extreme Above. That is sociopathic people. Murderers Could be. Murderers Could be just you know, someone who feels like they're above the law, not necessarily only murderers. It could be psychopaths that feel like they can get away with murder. Hence you know, quote unquote, but they're not always that way, not murderers exactly.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. Yeah, that's so intense. I'm so deep into this convo. How about parents? I mean, are there parents like this raising children?
Speaker 1:Yes, and what does this do to the child Speaking of we were talking about earlier, about children, right? Like if you were raised with a narcissistic parent, you might repeat the pattern, right? So I work with kids as well and I think that it is so important to help them through it, whether they pick up on the narcissism or whether they're opposite of their narcissistic parent. I really work on the root cause of that, the root problem, and help them so that they don't become narcissists later on, wow them so that they don't become narcissists later on. And you know, usually there's only one parent who's narcissistic. It's not usually two, but the narcissistic parent always blames the other parent. Oh, you know they groomed the kids and you know they're this. She or he wants me to go like. He's basically like she or he is basically making up stories to make the kids, you know, not like me. So it's always like the other person, the other parents fault.
Speaker 2:What happens to children like this, like what happens to their childhood, what's like the? I mean they, they have an anxious or do you have anxiety? Do they have like mental health?
Speaker 1:issues. Children are extremely resilient, believe it or not. They can face anything, even if they are scared. So they do become anxious later on. They are scared and they feel lonely and isolated because if parents are divorced, their other parent doesn't want them to call the other one.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that is so sad they're stuck in the middle and they get the oh my God, Yep.
Speaker 1:And sometimes a narcissistic parent will bait their kids in a way to manipulate them so that they go against the other parent who's actually safe and secure for them. So children in those types of parenting the narcissistic parenting they don't feel safe and secure at all and ultimately that's the thing right. We want to feel safe. We want to feel secure in a healthy relationship. In a narcissistic relationship, you're always on a fight or flight. Your nervous system is always acting up because there's always something wrong, right. You're not ever safe. You're not ever secure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever experienced like friendship or relationship with a narcissist?
Speaker 1:You can say that I know. You know that I was in a narcissistic relationship. Can I get personal? Listen, I say it. You know, I feel I say it. I have been in narcissistic relationships to really to one more extreme than the other, and that is the reason why I'm here today. I experienced it myself and I feel like a lot of therapists not all therapists understand this dynamic. I do feel like you have to experience it to really understand what that client goes through.
Speaker 1:You're absolutely right to be able to help better, yeah, yeah, and, to be honest, through the years of working with my clients, it was healing for me too. I saw my own therapist, really, yeah, and you know I also am in a healthy relationship. So I've been on a journey, you know it's been a really wonderful journey for me.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us about your experience? I think that a lot of women will relate, and I think it's if you're comfortable talking about it, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you have a question for me? Because I can go on and on. I'm all about truth and I think it's if you're comfortable talking about it, of course. Yeah, do you have a question for me? Because I can go on and on. I'm all about truth and.
Speaker 2:I will tell you. Well, first tell me, how did you know you were in a relationship with a narcissist? What point was there that you just woke up and you're conscious of it? I mean, yeah, you're a therapist. You know.
Speaker 1:but See, I hear that a lot right Like I hear that a lot right Like you're a therapist and you know, you're supposed to know you're I'm human first. I always say I am human first. Just because you know you're a doctor, you're not supposed to know like everything. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like you're not supposed to.
Speaker 1:Well, you're a doctor, you're supposed to know. Well, not necessarily they're human too. Let's say, yeah, um, I was with, you know, I was in a narcissistic relationship that didn't last too long and then I jumped right after that to another one. So, as you can tell, there was a pattern there and what kind of got me into it again. It's this idealized version of how I saw my life and the reason, the way I found out, is, I felt extremely confused, exhausted, and you know, I was just not understanding what was happening. I knew there was something going on. I was like there's something, it's not my fault, only like there's something going on. Right, I'm exhausted, I'm not happy, I cry every couple of right. So I went to the therapist and the therapist said I remember this clearly she goes, I think he has these narcissistic tendencies. I was like what is that? Because we didn't? I don't know about you, were you taught narcissism? Like we just kind of skimmed through the book.
Speaker 1:No, we skimmed through the book. I don't even remember NPD. And first of all, they don't even have a diagnosis for survivors in the DSM. So I really didn't know and I was like whoa. And then it just hit me, it was like a whiplash. I was like, wow, I started seeing clearly.
Speaker 2:When you say you saw your in the beginning, you said something you said. That's not the way you saw your life. Is that what you said?
Speaker 1:I mentioned that like I saw the relationship as this idealized version.
Speaker 2:What does that mean? What does that mean? Can you talk to us about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the idealized version is is like looking at your future and like, oh, I'm going to be engaged, I'm going to be married to this wonderful guy.
Speaker 2:Yes, you got your wedding dress already, yeah who?
Speaker 1:has a very good profession, my kids are going to be good. You know, I think where I was talking about this and I'm okay to say it but you grow up thinking I don't know if you grew up like that, but some people like me grew up thinking, oh, get married to a doctor, a lawyer, you know. But we don't realize I could be a doctor or a lawyer. Yes, you know what I mean. Like you could be that person. But you know, at the time it was a very I was in a vulnerable space because I wanted to get married, I want to have kids. I wanted my kids to be good, you know, and I wanted them to be secure too. And I'm thinking, oh, like, this man is older, he's, you know, he's great.
Speaker 1:The other narcissist was a little bit different, it was just two different narcissists. So the other one I literally had like this future, you know, thing that I like, this idealized future, with this person thinking, oh, we're going to be happy and it's like, you know, isn't that that hope? Yeah, but then I didn't. I wasn't focusing. I was focusing on the idealized version versus the actual version that I'm experiencing in the moment.
Speaker 2:So you're being more like emotional versus logical. Sure, right, like thinking emotionally like, oh I'm going to be happy Versus what's happening. Yeah, and that's. Do you think that that's missing in a lot of victims, like they're very emotional and not very logical and present about what's happening, like the situation I mean you know, I think emotions are like pretty valid.
Speaker 1:I see where you're, I see where you're at with that, I get that. But I think that, like when it's too late, it's hard to not be emotional, like too late to leave or too late to like figure it out, like right. When you're trauma bonded, you're basically stuck. Yes, you feel stuck, you feel alone, you don't know what to do. So, yeah, could be emotional, but you know what does logic say yeah, heart and mind right. Your mind says leave and your heart says stay. But it's not because they're not logical either, it's just they get confused by the heart and the mind and they don't know what to what to do at.
Speaker 2:You know, when I'm thinking about this, it takes such strength to leave such relationship. It does. It really does so draining, like I'm just processing everything clinically right that can go through a person, never mind the withdrawal, Like while you're in the relationship. It's exhausting. Loss of relationship, loss of your self-respect yes, loss of self. Loss of your self-respect yes, loss of self-love, trusting yourself. You're going crazy. What if I'm wrong? And, by the way, I wanted to say this that I've heard a lot of women say it's not fair, because if I leave him, what if another woman gets the better version? I've heard that too.
Speaker 1:What the hell is that I would say please let them, because they're not going to get that better version. I've heard that too. What the hell is that I would say please let them, because they're not going to get that better version.
Speaker 2:That breaks my heart into pieces when I hear women say that, because you can tell by the woman's voice They've put so much energy into this relationship. Or men, sorry, women can be narcissists, right? Yeah, we're talking about men. Women can be narcissists, right yeah, we're talking about men.
Speaker 1:Women can be narcissists too yeah, for sure I don't want to.
Speaker 2:You know, have men think like we don't know, don't come at us, yeah, but research, but don't come at it.
Speaker 1:but research does show that, like, it's more men, men that are narcissistic, and also maybe that changes because it has a lot to do with the stereotype when, like you know, when they're younger, they're taught to like be men and you can't like be emotional, whereas women can be emotional. So I do think there's that like learned behavior and I think, since generations change, that could be different, but that is what you know. Research does show.
Speaker 2:I'm going to ask a really interesting question. It might be kind of like off and wow, but whatever, I'm just going to throw it out there? Do you notice that there's a lot of narcissistic individuals in the Armenian community? Are you trying to like?
Speaker 1:get us killed or something Like what are you trying to do Like seriously, had us killed? Or something like what are you trying to do like seriously? Are you sure you want to ask this question? No, I actually think no, to be honest. I have to be honest. Like I'm armenian, I love my like armenian people come on let's be real, yeah, but I am, uh, I don't think narcissism discriminates. I really don't. No, no, you know, it's anybody and everybody, right.
Speaker 1:But since we're Armenian, Well, you know, I hear you know, even like my Persian clients say that too. Like you know, I have a narcissistic parent. But again, yes, I agree, like I think it could be very cultural. I think that it is the generational trauma getting passed down, right, but I also think that it just doesn't discriminate Everybody and any race or culture, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think, when I'm thinking about this, you have Indians, I think, indo-europeans in general, middle Easterns. There's just something there that majority of men and women have these tendencies.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it's because white people don't have it or black people don't have it. I'm just saying like I see it a lot within the realm of our cultures. Yeah, and I don't know what it is. Is it, you know, parents raising their children privileged? Is it trauma? It could be trauma, it could be so many things, but it's more exposed, you see it more.
Speaker 1:I think that it probably also.
Speaker 2:I would love to do like that research on our culture and like root cause of it.
Speaker 1:You know but yeah, I do, I totally agree with you. I do think it's like a generational trauma thing. You know. Just immigrant families coming to the US and not having anything and their older like you and their older son or something has so much pressure and expectation to be a certain way in society as they get older. I actually think that men have a lot of pressure. I think we were talking about this. It's so much pressure to be the man of the house, to take care of the house, to take care of your parents and your relationship and your kids, siblings too, from little age too. Yeah, there's a lot of expectations, but the thing is like they grew up meeting those expectations and more, and you know they feel like they could be superior, maybe.
Speaker 2:True. So help me understand this Can a parent raise a child who's a narcissist unconsciously, with not even knowing that they're doing it, or if the parent is narcissistic?
Speaker 1:if the parent is narcissistic, yeah, so there's always the narcissist in the relationship and usually there's the empath. The other partner is the empath. Now you get kind of that 50-50 dynamic pattern that you teach your kids. Now what I've seen is there are kids who grew up narcissistic. That is just something that they mirror from their narcissistic parent. Or the other spectrum is they see the side of their empathic parent and they choose to be more empaths, believe it or not, and they choose not to please their narcissistic parent. So kids want to please their parents and those who want to please their narcissistic parent is a never-ending cycle that is not going to be good enough.
Speaker 2:I wanted to dive into this because, yes, there's a lot of individuals in these relationships with their parents and it's hard to say break away from them, because in our culture, in the Middle Eastern, indo-european cultures you know this that it's taboo. What do you mean? Boundaries with your parents? Yeah, not seeing your parents. So we've talked about, like, the leaving processes. But what about the people that can't leave relationships with their parents that are narcissists, or their lovers, husbands, wives? How can these people help themselves in a relationship like this? Or I hear mother-in-laws.
Speaker 1:Mother-in-laws, father-in-laws absolutely.
Speaker 2:What can they do when they can't leave? They're stuck in relationships like this.
Speaker 1:It's really difficult to engage with someone who is narcissistic, but there are tools and techniques that help. So one of the things we call it is gray rocking method. This one doesn't. You're basically stoned, like you're just stoned still, and you're just not saying anything, just nodding, you don't react. You don't respond to this person. That's what they call it gray rocking. Now, this doesn't work. When you're getting divorced, gray rocking does not work. You have to engage. Even like talking parents, you have to engage with the other. Even if it was a narcissistic person, you have to engage with them.
Speaker 2:So that's one way, grey rocking Grey rocking but wouldn't the narcissist see that you're kind of off? Wouldn't they pick on you more?
Speaker 1:for that? Yeah, because nothing you do is good enough. Even if you please them, it's still not good enough. Even if you gray, rock them and you're like, okay, yes, sure, it's still not good enough. So you're going to realize whoever is in a relationship like this is going to realize nothing you do is going to be good enough so you survive. There isn't like a yeah, so there isn't't like I wish, there's like tools, but like I wish I can say here's an antidote and this would work in a narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 2:so you're saying nothing works no they should run like run away. Build that courage, yes, and the support system, of course yes to run away.
Speaker 1:I would say say leave If you can leave. If you can't, that's okay. We work through it, me and my clients work through it. I never tell my clients to leave because ultimately I just show them how toxic it is, but I don't. I just feel like I come from a nonjudgmental place and it really-.
Speaker 2:I can tell Right, it makes my clients feel the opposite.
Speaker 1:It makes my clients feel very safe. Yeah, I'm very truthful, but yeah, I meet them where they're gentle. When they need to hear the truth, I tell them also.
Speaker 2:I have a question. Yeah, so there's this cycle that I see a lot. Um, when you have a narcissistic parent or when you're in a relationship with one, you're constantly sucked into this conversation with them. That it's like this gossip or this drama that you have to constantly take, and sometimes you're aware of it. You know that if you take this gossip to this family member, it's not going to end well because they're going to go on and on and on, but you do it anyway. I mean, it's a nervous system response. What is that? Is that fawn? No, that's not fawn when you're just like pleasing, yeah it's a fawn response.
Speaker 1:It's a fawn response, right? Who are you pleasing, though?
Speaker 2:The narcissist Got it. Yeah, the narcissist Got it, yeah. So I want to know how can people break from that, because you also see that like, oh, people pleasing kind of like you're going so that you're not, you're saying these things to them so that you're not the victim, they don't pick on you, you're trying to please them. Do you notice this in victims as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they try to over please, yeah, over compensate yes To like you know. Yeah, they try to over-please and over-compensate to make the narcissist happy, happy, yeah.
Speaker 1:But, he or she might be happy for a minute or two. Guess what? The next day they're not happy. They're very moody. They can wake up very cold-like, right, they're like ice. Sometimes they have no emotions. The thing is one of the main components of being in these types of relationships you're going to realize nothing you do is good enough. You please them. They want more. You don't please them. Why aren't you pleasing me? Why aren't you paying attention? Okay, well, I'll give you more attention. And then they devalue you and then they insult you. And then you tell them well, you insulted me. No, I didn't. And then you tell them you're on your phone. Why are you on your phone all the time? Right, I, when we're going out, I'd like to like just put our phone. Well, I'm working. Why are you saying this? I'm working. What's wrong with you?
Speaker 2:It's always what's wrong with you, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's always like you're the problem, what's wrong with you, and at some point you're like I must be crazy, maybe I'm the narcissist. Right, I have survivors actually have said like am I the narcissist? No way, yeah, almost every single survivor that I've worked with asked me that question.
Speaker 1:What do you tell them? I say, if you questioned yourself that you're the narcissist, you're not, because narcissists don't question themselves. They don't know that they are. They don't know that. And if you call a narcissist a narcissist, guess what they're going to say you're the narcissist. So they blame it on you. They shift the blame right back to you.
Speaker 2:I have so much empathy for women who are in relationships like this.
Speaker 1:I do too, and I think that the more we talk about it I mean, we've talked about it years ago, I've known you years already, right, and we've talked about that and you understood where I was coming from and when I started the Self Love Society page on Instagram, you know, and that's part of it, right, like, I also think that people don't love themselves enough to walk away from a toxic relationship, but it's okay, because it does stem from childhood, and one of the things that I do with my clients is unpack the childhood wounds so that you don't repeat the pattern.
Speaker 2:And it's never too late to leave Never too late, natalie, how can one love?
Speaker 1:themselves. One of the things that it's important to do is love their inner child. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, when you come from a dynamic growing up where it was conditional love versus unconditional love, you're going to feel like you need to please your parents in order to get love and when you don't, you get punished. So, because you didn't get that when you were younger, you have to do the opposite. You have to, as an adult, tell your inner child I love you, I got you, I will support you, I will validate you be your own parent, type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah I I also what I do for clients. I tell them to like write a letter to their inner child. I know we hear this often, but I it works so well because not a lot of people get to tap into their inner child unless if, like, they do the therapeutic work right um, and that's true, and I I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but my book is coming out on.
Speaker 1:No, you did not mention what. Yeah, my book is coming out no, you did not mention. And one of the chapters is working on the inner child in order to love yourself. And yeah, it's called Detoxing from a Narcissist. It's years of work when is it coming out Sweat and tears. It comes out June 1st, two, yeah, june 1st, and it's International Narcissistic Abuse Awareness Day 2. So I am such an advocate and, oh my god, I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm really excited. I'm excited to read it of course I will.
Speaker 1:I will send it to you. Yeah, wow. I'm excited for people all over the world. Just to kind of get that kind of information, because not everybody can afford therapy and not this is true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm more excited that it's an Armenian last name on top of that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's phenomenal.
Speaker 2:Yes, representing for sure. You are 100 percent. I did some trauma work with a therapist in the past and it's interesting that we did some inner child work therapy and he said for me to do something interesting. I wanted to share this. I thought it was really cool, the letter writing. He said which hand do you write with? I said my right. He said with your left hand, try to write, as your inner child like, what you want to tell your, what your inner child wants to tell you. With your left hand, it's going to come off. You know weird and it's. You're not probably going to understand it. You're not going to write it. Well, and with your right hand, try to write to your inner child what you want to tell it. And it was so empowering. I believe in that. It's very, very meaningful. Can you tell us a little bit about what's that unconditional and conditional, so that people connect with?
Speaker 1:yeah, so unconditional love. Growing up could be like oh, you got bad grades, that's okay. Like you know, I'll help you, let's do it together. How can I help you? Um, conditional, uh, conditional is like you got bad grades, you're a bad kid, you need to get it up.
Speaker 2:Those words are real. You guys Parents have used that.
Speaker 1:That's just one example, right, that's one example. And imagine, over time you hear that over and over again, right? So conditional love is like oh, you're a bad kid, because I don't know you did something wrong.
Speaker 2:How come the other one's getting good grades and you're not?
Speaker 1:Comparison yes, that's one of the key. Actually, that's great that you brought that up.
Speaker 2:That's one of the key factors of a narcissistic parent is comparison Constant, true and conditional is that you're great. You'll do better next time. It's more like empathy and love Exactly that.
Speaker 1:No matter what you do, I still love you. I'll still be here for you.
Speaker 2:So the inner child work comes from a person having a deeper understanding and unconditional love of their inner child. What would you say to somebody who feels like awkward doing inner child work Because they're kind of like, like what, what is that Like? How do you introduce them to that, to that type of work? Because people are gonna ask that I know that for sure. Yeah, Like that's a little weird. What inner child? I have an inner child, but I'm a grown 35 year old man. What's that? What do you say to them?
Speaker 1:Maybe they're not ready to tap into their inner child, because everybody has yeah, everybody has an inner child and you know, that's. That's the ego saying I don't want to work on myself, I'm too scared to work on myself, right, I'm going to avoid it as much as possible. I have a lot of male clients that come in and says you know what? Like I have it, I have an ego, like I need to work on it. It's so wonderful to work with like males like that.
Speaker 1:That's amazing to hear yeah, they take responsibility and they're like well, I've insulted my partner, like what I need to change? That? That's so amazing to me. That is yeah. So there are men who come in and really work on their sense of self, their ego. So the only way you can work on themselves is when you, you know, are aware that, like you have to, you know, take care of your identity and who you are and become a better, become better. And that's what I tell, like I, when I talk about narcissism, it's like I always say, like, teach your kids just better coping mechanisms To To take care of themselves.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. Yeah, that's beautiful, but don't you think that kids need to also see that from their parents? Yes, they have to do it themselves.
Speaker 1:Right like model yeah.
Speaker 2:That's so hard because that's beautiful. You're absolutely right, but I feel like it's so hard to keep saying it. If a mom's neglectful of self, if a dad's neglectful of self, and then how is the kid going to know how to love themselves like that?
Speaker 1:I agree. Parents are a mirror to their kids. They have to take care of themselves so that the kids see that and repeat healthier patterns. Yes, so unlearn the unhealthy patterns. It's not about putting parents down. I mean narcissistic parents. They are who they are, but it's not about putting them down. It's about understanding yourself. Do you read my comments?
Speaker 2:When you said let me cut you off with sugar, as we say it. When you said it's not to put parents down, every single thing that we post short, we post post. There's a comment of stop shaming parents and I'm like it's not.
Speaker 1:Well, not everybody's gonna be correct everyone's going to like agree, what, what we say, what you say, every and you know, you've made it.
Speaker 2:If there's, like you know, opinions like yeah, there's always going to be absolutely, but it's not. It's it's truthful speaking. It's why you do what you do today, because you're so passionate about people and you want people to be happy and live comfortably.
Speaker 1:Well, it's people you know. It's like hear no evil, see no evil. There's no evil, Right? So people operate in that way. Yeah, and that's what we get.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's what we get. That's why I'm like did you read the comments? Because it's interesting. There's always that stop shaming parents. And when you said that, I was like hmm.
Speaker 1:She's not shaming you guys.
Speaker 2:I know, no, but going back to self-love again. So it's recognizing your inner child. What else, what other really?
Speaker 1:cool techniques can we use to find that self-love? Well, I think that, like, you have to be compassionate to yourself and be confident. I think a lot of the times when you're in toxic relationship, you think, oh, this is all I can get Right. Oh, yeah, so like people I hear it Right. It's like women have like the time clock, you know, ticking time, and they just want to be in a relationship. And I think that's the worst part of it. When they just feel like, okay, this is it, I'm just gonna lock it down. It doesn't matter how bad or how good, because I want a future life. I want a like a, you know family with this person. I think that's the worst thing you can do, because you're not saying I love myself enough to like leave you. You're saying I'm just going to put up with this and tolerate this and this is good enough for me. I say to my clients in order to love yourself, what are your expectations, what are your non-negotiables, what is your standard? That's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Raise your standard, right?
Speaker 1:Oh well, this is, it's okay. You know, he insulted me. She insulted me here and there. No, that's not OK. That's never OK to be disrespected or psychologically, emotionally, physically abused, that's never OK, not even if it happens once absolutely, and the fact that there's people who actually think it's okay, it's breaks my heart.
Speaker 2:It's okay. I always go back to the women that are in relationships like that. I know that I I want to talk so much about this that they get all their answers and they, they, they leave, like that's why I don't want to leave anything off. I'm trying to like think of like what ways can we go so that the person that's hearing this, that's in this relationship, can find the courage to leave?
Speaker 1:I say find a therapist, I mean I might be completely biased. Find a therapist, find a coach, find it's not just therapy. You can find a coach that understands this kind of dynamic, like first find someone that you can work through it with.
Speaker 2:So you think guidance is key. They can't do this alone, right?
Speaker 1:It's inevitable to find guidance, to get to a place where you're like okay, like now, I can work on myself. You have to, there's no other way. You, there's no other way. And you know some people, I think that listen to podcasts like yours or you know, listen like, look at videos. People are online. People are becoming more aware of this kind of dynamic. Not everybody has rose-colored glasses anymore because we are talking about it now, not when I started doing this work, 10, almost years ago, no one would talk about it.
Speaker 2:What do you think happened? Why are people so invested in it now?
Speaker 1:Because people are more aware that it's happening, that it's actually happening, that there is narcissism out there. People are talking about the truth now, when they didn't before, and people are more educated about it now. We have social media, we have online, we have YouTube, we have TikTok, so a lot of people are bringing awareness and educating others about what's really going on the dark side of narcissism. The dark side of narcissism.
Speaker 2:What's interesting to me is that there's you, who's the licensed therapist, and you do the narcissistic recovery, but there's also a few on Instagram, dr Remy I think. Romany.
Speaker 1:Dr, Romany, and it's always like a therapist who's experienced a relationship with a narcissist that's doing this type of work now Dr Romani I would say I look up to, because the first book I ever held in my hands was hers.
Speaker 2:And this is when I was going through a narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1:I always said it was my Bible because, it opened my eyes so much I didn't go back to my therapist. I worked through it, but I didn't go back to my therapist. I was like reading the book. It opened my eyes so much it was like my therapy when I was reading the book, so it helped me a lot. She knows what she's talking about and she says it really well. She's extremely knowledgeable in this field. I can't wait for your book. Oh, I can't wait I mean I am so nervous and excited at the same time.
Speaker 1:But this book is for survivors.
Speaker 2:Tell us what got you into writing this book, because my God that's.
Speaker 1:So when I was going through my narcissistic relationship, I was going on and off, in and out. It was on and off for like a couple of years, even when I left. I just you know, one foot in, one foot out. I think that's the toughest part too, because like you get stuck in that cycle over and over again.
Speaker 2:How would you tell us about that before we? So sorry, because you brought up something interesting.
Speaker 1:So for example like I would leave and the narcissist would like text me like five months later, like with a picture reminding of us. That's one example.
Speaker 2:And then that would just get you.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you're looking at it and you're like, oh you know, because you're trauma bonded right, you're like you detox now like they're bringing you back into the cycle. You're like, oh my gosh. Like what do I do? I know I shouldn't Like again. Logic says don't text back. Heart says text back Right. The heart's like emotional right. So you're like text back, but the logic says don't do it.
Speaker 2:How did you find the courage to like fully end it? What needed to happen for?
Speaker 1:Natalie to he found another supply. Oh, no, oh, like yay me, because it I mean yeah, yay you.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 1:No, that's the thing about narcissists, right. They can't be alone, they have to have they can't.
Speaker 2:they can't be alone. So you're saying that all those women in relationships right now when they leave, they're easily replaceable?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, if there weren't replaced, like, they're already finding another supply in the process, in the interim. So when you leave, guess what, there was another one right after you, maybe even within the same timeframe. So they secure supply because they can't be alone. For me it was amazing. Sometimes I share my story to clients because my clients are like, okay, how do you know, how is it possible? You know this kind of stuff. So I'm very truthful, I've healed, I've really worked on it, um, but I've, you know, one foot was out the door, it's just the, it's the love bombing stopped. I was already out, the love bombing stopped, you know, the cycle stopped and it was like like, literally weight like lifted off my shoulders. It was. I celebrated that day. So it was actually remarkable and so healing for me.
Speaker 1:And you know, a lot of survivors asked me like, how, like you know, obviously it's hard to leave because they also smear your name. They use what's called smear campaign. So they put you down, yeah, so that they make themselves look better. So you know, like, oh, like, or victimize themselves. Oh, poor me, she, she or he left me. My God, oh, I could. There's so much information, but give it to. I, yeah, I mean my experience did. My experience did guide me to writing my book and, because of what I was going through, I was actually using that information and my experience to write this book and the book is 12 Stages of Recovery and I realized my 12 stages and I realized other people's 12 stages is very similar to mine, and the first step is understanding the narcissist and identifying it. That would be the first stage.
Speaker 2:Which takes a long time, I'm sure. Right, yeah, wow, it's such a long process to overcome. Oh, that's why it's called the recovery. Yes, it's called the recovery for a reason, and the title is detoxing, because that's kind of what it's called the Recovery. Yes, it's called the.
Speaker 1:Recovery. Literally it's called the Recovery for a reason, and the title is Detoxing, because that's kind of what it's like when you leave. Even if you leave or they leave you, you're still detoxing, right. So sorry guys.
Speaker 2:Pick up if you need to, aroxia, picked up. They did. No, this is a client. She called her husband on the show. This is the show. This is a client. Sorry, put her on speaker. Oh my, my kid called me 10 times buddy. Um, yeah, that's why I was, because it's called a recovery, because it takes a long time from the abuse to kind of getting yourself back together again.
Speaker 1:My god, yes, putting yourself back together, putting the pieces back together. And I I've, you know, I've heard from a lot of, like other people that I've dated their significant others, reaching out and stuff and you know, relating to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it's.
Speaker 1:You know, it's nice to be at a place where I can really help people and be at a place where it's not about shaming others. It's my truth, it's my story and I think it's beautiful Thank you and I love what you're doing with it. Thank you Honestly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. This is a topic that needs to be talked about even more. I wish that more and more therapists are like open about it and I don't know. It's scary. And I again for the third time. I always go back to the women who are in a relationship, because I know a few. That's why it's so close to my heart.
Speaker 2:They're in a relationship like this and they're constantly calling, I don't know what to do, and it's like so scary for them to leave and when they leave, leave, they go back in like two weeks as max, exactly. Yeah, like two weeks is what what? That particular person lasts like she goes right back and it's like I see, I see what it does, you know, and the physiological cause as well. Yeah, my god, it's so stressful on the body.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the love bombing is the oxytocin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is oxytocin, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And then the dopamine level drops when they start being rude and mean to you, so yeah, it's chemical.
Speaker 2:It is chemical and you always go back to let me do something for them to be happy. It's just constant giving, giving, giving, Exactly. And then you're like, oh, my God, I've lost all this weight. Now I have thyroid issues, this and that, so I don't know. I just feel that, if there's anybody out there that's experiencing this, I think this podcast was I mean, it's very resourceful, it was full of information and, my God, just walk away. So you're saying, walk away. They're never going to change, they're never, going to change Never, unfortunate.
Speaker 1:I have yet to find like someone. If anyone's out there, then correct me. If I'm wrong, then prove me. If I'm wrong, but you can reach out to me. But I've never met a narcissist. That has changed.
Speaker 2:Are narcissists. I mean even the covert one or the mild ones. Are they aware that they're a narcissist, even though you can call them a narcissist? Are they aware?
Speaker 1:Do they acknowledge it. Some, when they're lower on the spectrum, like way lower on the spectrum they may do something about it. I've had male clients, for example, come to me and say I've insulted my significant other. I'm like this, I need to change, I need to work on it. So that's a possibility. But when they're higher on the spectrum they're more malignant, they're more covert. It's harder to change. They never do Even ask anybody that understands narcissism. They never do Ask the survivors. Has your partner changed ever since? And I'm sure you've been in the relationship for I don't know, a couple of years or more. Have they changed at all?
Speaker 1:Doubt it, I'm saying no, yeah, I have doubt it.
Speaker 2:One friend that says he's even worse with the other partner.
Speaker 1:Oh, they get worse as they age, as they age, because insecurities get worse.
Speaker 2:Deeper and deeper and deeper, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's sad. Yeah, it's sad and I hear that often. Sorry guys, what the hell? I haven't gotten this much calls in a while.
Speaker 2:The devil doesn't want us to talk about this. The devil's like stop talking about me. Oh my God, what was I saying? I was into it. Oh, you said the change like they never change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a narcissist never will change. They just get worse over time.
Speaker 2:And you said through age, oh, you were saying how it's sad, like it's sad, yeah, it's sad. They probably end up lonely, right? What happens to them?
Speaker 1:Well, I say like, just like you said, like, oh, they're in a better space, they're in a better place. You know, they got married, you had kids. They're never in a good place. I feel bad, you know, because eventually their romantic relationship will just disintegrate over time. That person may be in a relationship with that for a very long time and it would be harder to leave with kids. That's what I hear. Right, I have kids. I don't want to get divorced because I have kids. What are you know? I feel selfish for leaving because I have.
Speaker 2:Oh I hear that a lot. It's always for the children. It's like like they're going to get married and leave. What's going to happen to you? Yeah?
Speaker 1:but also kids get the worst end of the stick from the narcissistic parent. You know, seeing their parents be physically, emotionally, mentally abused is also not good, because they're going to grow up people pleasers and they're going to grow up being with another narcissist.
Speaker 2:Is that what you want? Or the opposite, right? They become severe narcissists themselves. Exactly, what is the diagnosis like? Like, what does it take for them to be, and how? I mean, like, how can you diagnose someone? I know that it's diagnosable and it's, you know, it's in the book but then, like someone comes to you and you're like, oh, so what? You're a narcissist, this is your diagnosis. Here you go. Yeah, tell me about that a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, I think for mental health professionals, like LMFTs, we diagnose, but really narcissists don't come.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:I haven't diagnosed yet a full-on NPD.
Speaker 2:They're going to come to you and say I'm a narcissist diagnosed. I've never heard that before Exactly.
Speaker 1:But some have come and said you know, I have some tendencies that I heard this and that repeatedly, and this is something that I want to work on. I hear that, but they're not like hey, you know these, I have a lack of empathy, I don't take accountability.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm a narcissist.
Speaker 1:Exactly they don't usually say that.
Speaker 2:And even if you tell them like I think you have narcissistic traits, they won't come back because they won't like you. Are borderlines similar to narcissists? Antisocial? Personality disorder is similar to narcissism.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the insults kind of feels like bipolar victimizing themselves. That's more closer to narcissism.
Speaker 2:Can men be borderline personalities, or is it just for women? I think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for borderline. Yes, they can be, it's men or women.
Speaker 2:That's intense. These personality disorders are pretty scary, Natalie, yeah it is extreme, they're scary.
Speaker 1:You know, we see documentaries on Netflix and stuff with like psychopathy, sociopaths and, like you know, having a lack of empathy. It is. It's scary, but you have to have a good radar, I think so, but but what?
Speaker 2:what do we need to have? That, though, like just education, right. Like reading education, right Like reading Education, knowledge, educate yourself, right. Yeah, that's very important.
Speaker 1:We have a lot of that right now, especially in the social media world we're living in, true, and it's advantages and disadvantages to social media, because narcissists like to take advantage of social media to make themselves look good in front of the public. So, but there's a lot of education out there and knowledge out there so that people don't feel alone in this.
Speaker 2:Are you taking new clients? I am. Can people reach out to you? Yes, anytime, and I'm going to link everything to the YouTube so that they have access to you. Sounds good, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Oh, my gosh, it was a pleasure Always. I hope you're okay with coming back so we can talk about your book.
Speaker 1:Anytime, I'll bring my book next time. Yeah, I would love that Me too, okay.
Speaker 2:Thank you, natalie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Such a joy. Thank you guys for watching.