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The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast
Welcome to "The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast," the podcast where insightful conversations unfold, and the depth of the human mind is explored. In each episode, I sit down with a diverse range of individuals—thinkers, innovators, and captivating personalities—who share their unique insights and experiences. Together, we embark on a journey of discovery, unraveling the complexities of the human psyche and uncovering the untold truths that influence our thoughts, emotions, and behaviors.
The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast
Dr. Lauren Cook | Anxiety, Motherhood, Gut-Brain Connection | The Edit Alaverdyan Podcast #23
How do new mothers, teenagers, and even mental health professionals grapple with anxiety? In this enlightening episode, we join Dr. Lauren Cook, clinical psychologist and author of "Generation Anxiety," to unravel the complex web of anxiety, its manifestations, and its profound impact on various aspects of life. From the struggles of new mothers to the rising tide of anxiety among teens influenced by body image issues and social media, we explore the multifaceted nature of this pervasive mental health challenge. Dr. Cook and I open up about our personal experiences, aiming to dismantle the stigma surrounding anxiety and offering heartfelt insights into managing panic attacks and everyday stressors.
Ever wondered how your gut health could be influencing your mental state? Discover the intricate connection between the gut-brain axis and anxiety, and why a holistic approach to mental health is essential. Through our conversation, we emphasize the need to understand and make peace with our bodily reactions, rather than fear them. We also shift focus to the critical topic of body neutrality, urging a move away from just body positivity. Learn valuable strategies for helping young adults, especially teenagers, see their worth beyond physical appearance, and gain practical advice for parents navigating the challenges of raising children in a social media-dominated world.
Parenting in the modern era comes with its own set of anxieties and pressures. We delve into the fast-paced lives many families lead today, discussing how rushing children can inadvertently contribute to their anxiety. Dr. Cook and I share practical strategies for fostering resilience and self-trust in both parents and kids, emphasizing the importance of slowing down and setting realistic expectations. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, we highlight the importance of accepting life’s inherent risks and teaching our children—and ourselves—to face fears with courage and grace. Join us for a meaningful conversation filled with strategies to manage anxiety and embrace the beauty of life’s uncertainties.
And it sounds so silly to people who haven't experienced anxiety or panic or phobias. They can listen to this and be like you have a phobia of puke.
Speaker 2:Get over it. Being a new mom is so challenging that it can isolate you sometimes because you don't have time to do anything except clean up after this little cute monster.
Speaker 1:Actually, eating disorders are the second most deadly mental health condition in this country, second only to the opioid crisis. This has real effects on people.
Speaker 2:There's also this tiring piece where you're just so mentally drained that giving them what they want, like okay, go play your video games, okay, go on your iPad, just to have that hour rest.
Speaker 1:So many people who struggle with anxiety are very afraid of their bodies. What is my body going to do? Is it going to give me a panic attack? Is it going to make me throw up? Is it going to make me feel like I can't speak or I can't breathe, knowing that the body is going to have different reactions? But we can start to handle that, we can start to accept that.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, thank you for joining me today. Today's episode was all anxiety-based. We talked to Dr Lauren Cook, clinical psychologist, author and writer of a wonderful book named Generation Anxiety Today's episode was anxiety-based, of course and writer of a wonderful book named Generation Anxiety. Today's episode was anxiety-based, of course, and we delved into what does anxiety look like and ultimately we really talked about the treatment, how to nurture our anxiety. We then talked about the different types of anxieties, but it was really interesting for me to talk to a clinical psychology of her research, her experience on how to heal from anxiety. What was wonderful about this episode is that Dr Lauren Cook and I we both shared each other's anxiety, about each other's anxiety and panic attacks, which I think you guys will find pretty relatable, and we talked about how we healed ourselves and that, you know, the overwhelming question of people does anxiety ever go away? Was talked about Just in general. A beautiful conversation, very meaningful and incredibly insightful clinical psychologist and her experience. I think you guys are really going to connect with this episode because there is this stigma out there that all clinical psychologists and family therapists you know they're perfect and they don't experience mental health dilemmas, which we kind of discussed in this episode that that's not necessarily true, that all therapists become therapists because of life experiences something difficult. So I think you guys are really going to find this episode great. You're going to enjoy and definitely learn a lot about your anxiety and how to treat it yourselves help yourselves.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining me and make sure to subscribe to the channel, because it's immense support to the podcast. All right, dr Lauren Cook, it's so nice to have you. Oh, thank you for having me. It's good to be here. Absolutely. It's an absolute honor. I love your work and we just met each other on Instagram. That's the cool thing. Like I found you, I was like, hi, she's so awesome. I would love to have her on my show. So I'm so happy that we connected.
Speaker 1:Me too, and we were right down the street. We're not far away from each other.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. Generation Anxiety, your amazing book. I want to talk about this because this is fascinating you guys. I want to know what led you to write this wonderful book of yours. Talk to me about this.
Speaker 1:Takes one to know one when it comes to anxiety. As a psychologist, as a therapist, but just as a human being, I'm really open about my own lived experience with anxiety. It has really wrecked havoc in my own life and I saw how it was stopping me from making some of the most important decisions in my life and I knew I had to do something differently about it. I was getting to the place of feeling hopeless and helpless with my anxiety. I didn't want that for other people either. So I wrote this book, hoping that it will be helpful for others who feel like they are drowning in their anxiety, and to really take a holistic approach to health. That's really important to me that we don't just heal from the neck up, but that we really heal holistically, because anxiety is a body experience, it's not just in our brains.
Speaker 2:That's something beautiful that you said, because it is a body experience and when I feel like most people experience anxiety, they think it's more about. I mean, there's the self-care piece that's portrayed, but not really understanding what self-care means. They think it's just objectified right Like nails and hair. But healing is really healing the body, can you tell? But healing is really healing the body. Can you tell us more about that? Healing the body from the anxiety?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'm fascinated as we're looking at this gut-brain axis connection. I think we're only going to see more research come out on this when you consider the fact that 95% of the serotonin in our bodies is in our gut.
Speaker 2:Our first brain.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and so you know. For me, one of the hugest parts of my healing was working with a naturopath, getting my blood work done, looking at the data my body is trying to tell me, healing my gut with the food that I was putting in when I was drinking all these different things, and that's when I really saw the needle start to move with my anxiety. That's when the improvement happened. That's wonderful.
Speaker 2:So is it true that anxiety doesn't have to be related to experiences? It could also be a body reaction, because people think it's more trauma related or negative experience, and that's not the case right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it certainly could be those things, but it's not only that. Some people are just born with perhaps what we would call overactive amygdalas. That sensory alarm just goes off, more for that person than for another. And then you have people on the far side, someone like Alex Honnold with his free climb of Yosemite. His amygdala is like not firing at all. Right, that fear response is not there. So it's on a spectrum for each of us and I think a lot of people shame themselves, feeling like what's wrong with me that I am having this reaction. And really a lot of times it does come down to pure biology and that's okay.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like by diving into more of your body and nurturing your body, it has helped nurture your anxiety.
Speaker 1:I think so for sure, because I've learned how to make peace with my body's reactions. I think, yeah, it's been so transformative. I think so many people who struggle with anxiety are very afraid of their bodies. What is my body going to do? Is it going to give me a panic attack? Is it going to make me throw up? Is it going to make me a panic attack? Is it going to make me throw up? Is it going to make me feel like I can't speak or I can't breathe? And a lot of my work with clients is teaching them how to not live in fear of their bodies, knowing that the body is going to have different reactions. But we can start to handle that, we can start to accept that, wow.
Speaker 2:That's powerful, dr Cook. How do you help someone who is afraid of their anxiety, then? Because you get anxiety from not wanting to have anxiety and it turns into panic. You don't want to have panic, but then you have a panic attack. It's always fearing the anxiety and the panic because it's a gnarly feeling for people. I've had it. It's really bad. So, how can somebody help themselves from that fear?
Speaker 1:It's starting to pull back the curtain and demystifying what anxiety is. It's looking at it and saying, yes, this is anxiety, this is panic. It's not comfortable, it's not fun. And yet no one has died from a panic attack. Correct, even though the brain might want to tell you otherwise in the moment. Right, and so it's really learning.
Speaker 1:I can handle the discomfort, because a lot of times anxiety is about being uncomfortable and we have so socialized ourselves to avoid discomfort we run away from it. That's why we see so many numbing behaviors. But if we can really teach folks to sit with discomfort, then they quickly start to see oh, it's not pleasant, but I don't have to let this derail my life either. Does that take time? Oh, it does. It does and it takes trust. I'm always sharing with my clients. It's like I'm asking you to do a trust. Fall with me, right, and I'm going to be here to catch you.
Speaker 1:But people are so afraid to loosen the grip on their anxiety because they feel like their anxiety is a protective, preventative factor. It's helping me stop the panic. If I allow these things to happen, then I'm really going to fall into chaos. But what my job is is helping folks see that it's not chaos that awaits the release, it's liberation, it's getting your life back, and the key here is not necessarily waiting for the anxiety to go away. I think that's where people make a misstep. Wow, yes, they think they can stop their anxiety or they can make it disappear. I provide the reality of you may be living with anxiety. It may ebb and flow at different points in your life and that's okay. If we can start to make peace with that, that's when we can start to get our life back.
Speaker 2:I find it so difficult to find peace with anxiety. It's one of the I mean, I've struggled with it for a long time. I've had panic attacks for a long time and it's really difficult to accept it. But it's also ultra hard to find peace with it. How do you think that from watching this podcast, people can learn? Or at least partially understand, to make peace with their panic attacks and anxiety.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you bring that up because it does feel like such an internal wrestle and I think sometimes we can feel like we're failing in some way if we can't make the panic go away. But I think if we can give ourselves so much more compassion, honestly treating ourselves as we would our own children, parenting our inner child, if our child were to have a panic attack, how would we respond? We would hold, we would not shame, we would embrace. And yet I think a lot of times when we have panic as adults, we finger wag at ourselves what's wrong with you, you need to get a handle on this, get a grip. And that just amplifies the distress. But if we can hold ourselves and say it's okay, you feel anxious right now. It's not fun, it's not pleasant and this sensation will pass. That really starts to deescalate fun. It's not pleasant and this sensation will pass. That really starts to deescalate it. It's talking to ourselves in our most loving voice, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I love that Going into, I think, a lot of children nowadays. I mean, the anxiety with teenagers is pretty intense now, and when I'm looking at it with a more stronger lens, I'm finding that it's this body image. What do you think is really happening with this? Because it's I mean, it's real.
Speaker 2:It is the judgment of oneself. Because, again, anxiety, yes, it's the nurture of body, past experiences, but also social media has done a pretty wonderful job causing teenagers severe mental health issues. I mean this comparison of bodies coming up and I was watching one of your lives. Was watching one of your lives something interesting? That I was listening to is every 52 minutes, a life is lost due to an eating disorder.
Speaker 1:Yes, Hugely concerning and I think a lot of people are surprised when they hear that statistic that actually eating disorders are the second most deadly mental health condition in this country, second only to the opioid crisis. This has real effects on people and you know, I think one of the misperceptions, too is that people think an eating disorder looks like a young girl who has anorexia. That may be the case, but a person can be struggling with bulimia. A person can be struggling with binge eating disorder, which is actually the most common, and eating disorders look so different different kinds of bodies, different ages, different genders. We could get into a whole conversation of how many men are going undiagnosed with eating disorders and body dysmorphia. So we've got to start talking about this more.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited to start seeing some shifts happening in this space the movement away from body positivity which has done tremendous work, that movement but moving into more body neutrality, of helping people learn that their worth is not in their appearance and so, instead of trying to convince themselves I love my body, I love my body. It's coming more to an acceptance I have a body, it's part of who I am, it's not all of who I am, and I think that's really important for young adults, especially because I see so many of my clients attach their worth in their appearance rather than their character, what they have to offer the world, what they're doing in their lives. I'm hoping we can really start to break that chain. That worth is so deeply rooted in appearance.
Speaker 2:I agree with you, dr Cook, from the two therapists sitting in front of each other talking about a serious issue that's happening in our state of each other talking about a serious issue that's happening in our state, what are the steps that parents can take, or what are some steps parents can teach, guide their children so that this issue doesn't arise, because children are very vulnerable. From 11 to 12, there's cell phones, they have access to Instagram and TikTok, and there, there you go, there, there it starts. So what advice would you give parents, like what can they guide or what can they teach their children what it's a good preventative?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah. So two things here. One as parents, we have to be mindful of how we talk about our own bodies. I hear so many parents and I have to catch too where we wake up in the morning. Oh, I look so tired, I look so ugly. Today I need to lose 10 pounds, xyz. Our kids are hearing this and so we have to catch ourselves with our self-talk that becomes their self-talk.
Speaker 1:The other thing I'm hoping you know, I know we both have about one-year-old kiddos and, I'm hoping, our generation of parents we can really come together on this and set some collective boundaries with the cell phone use. More of hey, let's hold off on the phone use until our kids reach a certain age, whether that's 13, 14, just something, so that we're not seeing elementary schoolers and even sometimes middle schoolers on Instagram and TikTok. I really think we've got to come together on that and set some boundaries. I was just seeing a great interview that Dr Becky Kennedy did one of my favorite parenting psychologists with Oprah, and she was talking about set boundaries with your kids now, when they're little, so that when they are, you know a teenager and they're asking for a phone. That's not the first time you're setting a boundary, but you're setting boundaries in place all along the way so that when you say, hey, there's limits on the cell phone use, it's not such a shock to their system.
Speaker 2:Parents are afraid to be parents nowadays, and I talked to a very good friend of mine and he was on the show Father Mashtots, and we talked about this that this generation is controlling parents. So why do you think parents are afraid to be parents? I mean, what's your opinion on this? Because you're right, it's enforcing those boundaries when they're little, but there's such fight back. So how do you?
Speaker 1:deal with that. Oh, I love that you bring this up. I think it's really, really important and I'm all for gentle parenting, do not get me wrong. I think it's really important to validate our children's feelings and bringing in the both and we love a good dialectic, you know also setting those boundaries. Now, why is that? I'm a millennial.
Speaker 1:Many millennials are entering parenthood or have for some time. We are the people-pleasing generation. Yeah, we are the achievement generation. We want to make everybody else happy, we want that gold star. Sometimes, what's the fastest way to get that? We think by being nice, by people-pleasing, including our own children, and so we really have to learn. It's not my job to be my child's friend or even to have my child like me right, it's my job to set those boundaries in place, obviously to make my child feel wildly loved and also for them to really feel contained and held. And that means teaching them their own distress tolerance skills they may not like when you say no, but that's an invaluable skill you're giving your kid than to just always give them the yes that they want.
Speaker 2:I'll add to that, there's also this tiring piece where you're just so mentally drained that giving them what they want like okay, go play your video games, okay, go on your iPad, just to have that hour rest and we do this, many of us do this, and this is how can we find a good medium? Like what's a good balance here? Like I don't know, like I always get asked this question like what's a good balance? Like my, my kids are so overwhelming, they overstimulate me. I just came from work. All I want to just, you know, just sit lay on the couch and it's okay for them to go and play video games and it's so understandable. It's our generation is so different. Like we're overworked.
Speaker 1:We are, we are. We've got so much on our plate and you know, we're also the generation where we grew up being told. You know, women, especially women, can do anything and everything, and how.
Speaker 2:But I don't want to do everything. I don't know about this whole equality business. I don't want to. It's draining, it is it's draining and there's a lot of pressure on us absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think that's why I put off becoming a parent for such a long time, because I was so anxious. There's no way I can possibly do it all. And now, as I am a new parent myself, I'm having to like really sit in the mess of it's not perfect in either space, and that's okay. But I think that's really hard when so many people in our generation have we strive for perfection. But did you see what hard when so many people in our generation have we strive for perfection?
Speaker 2:But did you see what I mean? Do you see what we're talking about? How this causes anxiousness and anxiety? And then we expect our children to be healthy? Yes, but like we're a mess ourselves, like I know I'm an anxious parent, I'm like very comfortable saying that because society pushes you to be that anxious mom. By the time you get home, you're like, oh you know, wired up and your child is watching you. Yeah, so it's not always the body, it's not always the experience, it's also the learned behavior. Growing up with an anxious mama, what happens to that kid, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and releasing that grip. I just posted a reel on my Instagram the other day. This study blew my mind. They were talking about the number one thing that contributed to anxious children, and you know what they said? They said it was parents who were rushing all the time.
Speaker 2:Yes, I grew up with a mom like that Really Okay, hurry up, hurry up, sweetie, hurry up, hurry up. In a kind way she was very gentle about it, but she always said hurry up.
Speaker 1:Go, go, go, Go, go go. What's the next piano lesson? And all that, yeah, that's an interesting study. I know, I know. So I'm trying to be mindful of that myself, of like, okay, slow down, there doesn't always have to be a next box to check, just be. But that is way easier said than done, yeah.
Speaker 2:What does anxiety look like for kids? What should parents look out for?
Speaker 1:Well, you know there are a lot of similarities with what we see in adults. It looks like sleep difficulties, right? If your kiddo's having nightmares or struggling with sleep. Irritability is a huge piece of anxiety that people don't think about Same thing with irritability and depression. So if you notice that your kiddo's really struggling to self-regulate, they're really getting angry, they're hitting or they're getting really inward, they're getting really silent and not communicating with you, those can be some cues and a lot of times they'll report gastrointestinal distress too Stomach aches, constipation, diarrhea. Another classic symptom is if somebody's vomiting first thing in the morning. I have so many clients who come to me and they're like Lord, I throw up every morning. What is going on? Cortisol's highest in the body in the morning, and so when we consider that and a lot of kids who don't have the words to talk about their experience or understand even what's going on it manifests especially somatically.
Speaker 2:You know what's interesting to me? Children as young as seven years old experience these anxieties and they never tell their parents about it because they don't understand it. And then they grow up and then it just, oh, it's pretty severe when they grow older. So what can we? How can we help, since that is the? What is it the first anxious parenting or what did you say? It was rushing your kids all the time. What can we do about that? Like, obviously, calm it down a little bit more, but what are some other steps, as a clinical psychologist, you think we can do to not rush our children?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, we often have the itineraries. I was also seeing a reel the other day of a mom who mapped their day at Disneyland like down to every 10 minutes, and there were so many comments that were like this is too much, this is too intense, and I think we feel like the plan is grounding but trusting ourselves. So much of anxiety is rooted in the fact that we don't trust ourselves.
Speaker 2:Can you explain about that a little bit more? I would love to understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's this idea of if I do panic or if I don't have a plan, I'm not going to be okay, and it's really starting to believe in ourselves. I can be okay. One thing that you know people call this post-traumatic growth. One thing that does come out of pain is people see, wow, I actually do have a lot of grit, I do have a lot of capability. Wow, grit, Grit and a lot of times with anxiety, many people who experience it it's all anticipatory anxiety.
Speaker 1:These are things that have not happened, but our brain goes to all the different possible scenarios. Sometimes it's really helpful actually to play the tape for yourself and to say, okay, what if my worst fears came true? What would I do? And to say, okay, what if my worst fears came true? What would I do? Our brain's trying to unconsciously get there anyway, but allowing ourselves that permission, we really do start to see, oh, it would be really freaking hard, but I'd figure out a way. I have a community, people who would help me. I could ask for help, and then people start to not live in such tremendous fear because they know they can handle whatever. That phone call we hope to never get but could be.
Speaker 2:I think that's beautiful. I love the way you explained it, because it is a trust in yourself. I mean, what happens to people who have anxiety? Right? I mean, from my experience and from what I've seen, they're constantly searching for validation. Is this normal? Do you see anybody else with this? I don't know if you hear that, but I get that all the time, right, like am I the only one, especially with the kids or it's? Are you going to sleep? Are you going to go to bed? Am I the only one that's going to be awake? So you're constantly relying on people and it gets very overwhelming for people as well. I think, yeah, they try to have a lot of empathy and sympathy, but it gets pretty, it's too much right, they can get drained.
Speaker 2:So teaching the individual who has anxiety self-trust. You're saying it's ideal to heal.
Speaker 1:I think it's foundational of knowing we have resilience. I love how Glennon Doyle says very simply but so profoundly we can do hard things, and so much of anxiety is learning. I can do hard things. I've seen that in my own life, working through my own panic attacks, working through my own phobia emetophobia which is a phobia of vomit. For people who are like what is that? It's really learning. I can get through hard things and I love love helping my clients see that too, because they get their life back when they start to tap into that belief.
Speaker 2:And it, but it is. It is the reality. Human beings were wired to take on the most difficult tasks. I mean, I've seen people come out of the most difficult situations, like losing children, which is horrible, but they get their life back and they make other children. So we have capability to do most difficult things and if we can just learn to trust ourselves, which is phenomenal. Dr Cook, would you please kindly share with us how did you develop the phobia?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I actually didn't really have the light bulb moment go off for why I have this phobia. Until I was in my master's program for marriage and family therapy, my whole life I'd struggled with severe phobia of vomit. I couldn't really be at sleepovers no boats, right, people getting seasick College you can imagine how that experience was. It really was taking over my life in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:I realized looking back my family history. My mom, when I was two years old, was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. She had been gaslit for years by doctors there's no way that a 35-year-old woman can have breast cancer and yet my mom as a nurse, she kept saying there's a lump here, there's something wrong. It was not until I was two years old and she had had the lump before she even was pregnant with me that someone finally believed her and she was diagnosed, but not till stage three. And then that began this whole process. She was vomiting all the time intense chemo this was in the early nineties surgeries.
Speaker 1:It really I have no conscious memory but from what I am told, she really almost didn't make it and I was often taken out of the home so that I wouldn't see these things. But I really think I internalized at a very young age vomit is connected to being out of control, potentially death, and being taken away from my caregiver, not knowing when I'm going to not see my parent again. And so that to me, was the light bulb moment of like that's it. That's it Because it's been so instinctual in me I couldn't explain it for years. And then the body wisdom, my body knew okay, that's where this came back to.
Speaker 2:Wow, Did you help yourself to be conscious of what was happening and how you formed the phobia? Or with therapy you developed that understanding?
Speaker 1:It was as we were learning about anxiety actually and trauma and I started to really get curious. You know, could there be a connection to the trauma that I experienced? And it took me a long time to see what I went through as trauma because I had no conscious memory of it. So I think it was hard for my brain to connect back to that idea. But I mean, so many people talk about Dr Bessel van der Kolk's book the Body Keeps Score. I love that book, yeah, yeah, and that was true with me.
Speaker 1:But it got to a place where I was just so sick of my phobia and my fear running my life, especially as I was getting into my 30s and feeling like I don't know if I want to become a parent, because what if I am throwing up every day of pregnancy? What if, you know, my children throw up? And I can't handle that. I mean, it was. And it sounds so silly to people who haven't experienced anxiety or panic or phobias. They can listen to this and be like you have a phobia of puke, get over it, but the story is much deeper.
Speaker 2:It is, it's much deeper. It's not the vomit, it's the story behind it. That's pretty hard for a person. How old were you Two when she was diagnosed? So not knowing if mom's going to be around and it's, oh my God, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it affected her for years. After that, right Like it led her to have an early menopause and all these different things. I didn't have other siblings because she couldn't have more children from going through chemo.
Speaker 1:It changed the entire you know dynamic of our history as a family, yeah, and so much of that being out of all of our control. So, yeah, it absolutely had an impact, and all that to say too. You know, I don't want people to hear this who maybe have phobia or anxiety and maybe don't have a story to feel like, well, what's wrong with me? Because I don't have a thing that led to it. Sometimes it is just purely biological and that's okay too.
Speaker 2:How long did it take you to overcome the pain that you endured when you were much younger? Was it like years of healing?
Speaker 1:I think it was. It was different bouts of therapy at different times. Eventually and I knew it had to get there was doing exposure and response prevention work. How did you do that?
Speaker 2:I think I would love for you to share your story, because it is all about exposure. Yeah, you know exposing, and do you want to kind of tell the audience what that means, so that they're aware?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exposure and response prevention therapy is literally facing our fears head on. The best form of therapy. It's the best and it's also the hardest. It's really freaking hard because you're leaning into the thing that gives you the most anxiety. It's incredibly empowering, but it's really hard, very, but it's really hard. And you also really need to work with someone who's trauma-informed with exposure and response prevention therapy, because I did not exactly experience that.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I can share more about that but that if we're not careful with it it can lead to flooding and further exacerbation of the anxiety and the trauma, and that was unfortunately the case for me, and so I'm very mindful as a practitioner to make sure my clients really feel like they are in control of the process and that it's never too much, because if it is, that worsens the outcomes Absolutely.
Speaker 2:There is a question with people that you know they love to ask me does anxiety ever go away? How do you respond to that question? Does it ever go away?
Speaker 1:I let folks know there's often a grief response that comes with the answer to this that anxiety ebbs and flows. It often and rarely I will say never fully goes away. There are times when it's really loud and there are times when it's really quiet and there's times in between. And if we can be okay with all phases of that, that's actually when the anxiety tends to go down. That's why I love acceptance and commitment therapy of teaching folks how to accept that you feel anxious sometimes, that you feel depressed sometimes. That's why I love acceptance and commitment therapy of teaching folks how to accept that you feel anxious sometimes, that you feel depressed sometimes. That's a part of you. It's a part of you.
Speaker 1:I was so into, you know, in the 2000 teens, I guess, when I was in college, there was such a movement towards happiness, the Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin, the happiness advantage. I mean there was a happiness surge during that time. I ate it up, I loved it. I even had a brand just called the Sunny Girl and I would speak about happiness with people. But I think the problem in that is that we really bought into this idea that we should only be happy and then we feel like something's wrong Spoiled thinking.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, it's not very smart to train our brains like that, because hardship happens, it's out there and you just never know.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's great to be happy sometimes, but it's okay to be anxious other times too, and in fact both can coexist, I would say, because a lot of people get into this all or nothing, thinking I can only be happy if I'm not anxious or if I'm not sad, and actually there can still be a lot of joy intermixed in our lives, even when we are feeling overwhelmed or we're feeling sad about what's going on.
Speaker 2:What about the people that love to distract themselves? I mean? I'm sure you've met people that just cannot have a quiet moment, because as soon as there's a quiet moment, anxiety creeps up, thoughts creep up. What advice do you give people like that? They're just constantly. I have to have something to do with whether it's cleaning, cooking, meetings, and it's like never a moment silently because they're afraid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're afraid to sit with themselves.
Speaker 2:They're afraid to sit with themselves. Yes, which? As therapists, we say that you got to sit with that, but then it's like sit with what? Who wants to sit with this feeling? Can you share some thoughts about?
Speaker 1:that, yeah, and a lot of people feel like feelings aren't productive.
Speaker 2:And it's certainly my culture. We're not very good with feelings, you know, we're learning. We're not very good with feelings, you know. Well, we're learning, we're doing a pretty good job learning. But how do you teach somebody to sit with those unwanted feelings?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a practice where we slowly build up to it, and I think body work is a great way to access this right, because it feels hard to just be in our brains. Access this right Because it feels hard to just be in our brains. But if we can find ways to slow down the body, whether it's with a yoga practice or a mindfulness practice, or I even just joined recently a matrescence group. Have you heard of this word, matrescence? What is that? I had never heard of this and it blew my mind, because we talk about adolescence all the time, but matrescence is the journey into motherhood. What I know I'm like that's like one of the most important things we go through in our lives, and yet I feel like most women, we've never heard this word.
Speaker 2:Being a mom. It's such a life-changing experience, I think. But that is wonderful because it does. I mean, like this is such a harsh way of saying it but part of you dies when you become a mom. It's like bye to that Lauren, or bye to that Adit. You're not single anymore. You're not a wife, you're a mom. Yes, you're stuck taking care of this. Here you go For the rest of your life, like they depend on you to live.
Speaker 1:Yes, If that's not difficult, I don't know what is. It's such a huge identity shift, very. And finding community with other people who are in a similar season as you, I think, is so nice for slowing down. So even in this matrescence group last night we did a guilt release exercise together. That's so nice.
Speaker 2:I want to join that group you should join.
Speaker 1:I'll give you the information I would love to and we lit our little pieces of paper on fire with our guilt written down, and it was a release. Or we did an adornment exercise of like really cherishing.
Speaker 2:So that's like very shamanistic. Yes, let's burn the guilt. I had a therapist try that with me when I was younger. It was so awesome. It's actually really helpful. We that with me when I was younger. It was so awesome.
Speaker 1:It's actually really helpful. We all felt like the lightness you know of like… Shamanistic yeah. So things like that, you know, I think, are really helpful to slow down and settle in. It's nice to do it with other people sometimes when we can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you feel lonely sometimes as a mom?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's such an interesting question. No, actually, but I think it's because I have had an opposite reaction. I'm more the mom you were just describing a few minutes ago of like busy, go, go, go. Yeah, I I joke, half joke I've never dated so many women in my life. I like pick up moms when I'm like out to eat, like you're a mama, you're a mama like let's be friends.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's so funny. Dated so many moms so, but I love dating moms too yes, it's like it brings a whole new group of people you want to date me. I want to date you.
Speaker 1:I like you, yes, so things like that. Oh my god, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 2:I love that there you go.
Speaker 1:We're going to set up a date after that, yes, but in that way I feel like I've maybe sometimes overcompensated, where I am maybe so afraid of being alone that I'm like, okay, let me have a walk with another mom on the books and go to my Todd, learn Me class and all these different things. So I think that has been a little bit more of my challenge of like slowing down, wow, and taking the time.
Speaker 2:That's such. That's so light on the heart, though. I love that because, yeah, being a new mom is so challenging that it can isolate you sometimes because you don't have time to do anything except clean up after this little cute monster. So I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was the program called? Oh, there's so many. The group called there's Toddler and Me, there's the Matressence group.
Speaker 2:Matressence.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's with Village Birth here in the Pasadena Los Angeles area.
Speaker 2:Is it in?
Speaker 1:person. Yes, we meet once a month In Pasadena. Yes, that's like we're on the corner.
Speaker 2:Please join us, join us I would love to actually.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. I love it. I actually just got an office space there at Village Birth. It is an incredible place for people who are going through the birthing experience. Doulas, birth education classes, massage, body work, the gamut I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my God, that's amazing. Matrescens Mat amazing Matrescence, matrescence group. It blew my mind. I'm sorry. I'm still processing that, because that's the coolest thing ever I know. I'm very happy that they're doing this. It's great for postpartum. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:That's great for postpartum. It's been huge for me and I think it's so interesting that the idea of that, like that, should be so commonplace, but we don't know about it. Can you believe?
Speaker 2:it. I know as, like professionals, we should know.
Speaker 1:I didn't Wow, same, same. I'd never even heard of that word.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I wish I knew this. I mean, I don't know if it's new, but I wish there was things like this almost 11 years ago because I, with my first birth of my firstborn, oh my God, the postpartum was really bad.
Speaker 2:It was so. I mean, I had anxiety and panic attacks every day for six months. Oh my gosh, for six months, yeah, until I kind of was like something's wrong, I don't want to come to the house. I loved my baby, but I was very disconnected because it's just so scary. So I'm like wow, like this would have been amazing back then, because it's real. Like postpartum anxiety is depression. It's real.
Speaker 1:It's more common than postpartum depression. People, I feel like, don't know that the postpartum anxiety is way more common.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the women that have taken their lives and the lives of their children from postpartum. That's also real and not talked about. You know, people don't share these kinds of stories. It's real and these things happen and it's not recognized. But wow, I mean, how where can we find your book? Tell us that. I mean, I'm diving away from anxiety a little bit from our combo, but tell us where can we.
Speaker 1:So Generation Anxiety is available wherever people like to buy books Target, amazon, barnes, noble, small bookshops. It's so fun for me when people are at a small bookstore in a different state and they're like I saw Generation Anxiety today and there's also an audible version too. It was so important to me to record the book. You did it yourself. I'm 38 weeks pregnant. I was like, please don't go into labor. I could barely fit in the sound booth.
Speaker 2:But yes, yes you spend a lot. This is like your child oh, in 2023.
Speaker 1:I joke. I two babies, human baby book baby.
Speaker 2:Yes, I can imagine you wrote this book while you were pregnant.
Speaker 1:Right before I got pregnant, actually, which was fascinating. How was that? Because one of my biggest anxieties was being pregnant, and so I think this book was really my primer. It was my preparation, and I remember it's your exposure. It is it's your exposure. Well, and if you look at the dedication, the book is dedicated in part to my son, because this work that I've done and I'll get emotional if I let myself, like, really sit with it this work that I have done has led me to this place. There's no other way that I would be sitting here with you, being a parent, if it wasn't for taking a chance on myself, and so I hope that people can hear that, if they're letting their anxiety lead their lives too, it doesn't have to be that way forever.
Speaker 2:Wow, you are such a prime example of when, because I could just imagine all the difficulty that you experienced. But being able to actually overcome and challenge yourself and have a child and write a book like that, that is so powerful and it shows that how resilient we are and we have grit, yes, that grit piece is so beautiful and I think that if every single person watching this that's struggling with anxiety can see how special they are, yes, and how strong they are, I think a lot of people would overcome those panics and anxieties.
Speaker 1:I think so too. They'd get their life back, overcome those panics and anxieties. I think so too. They'd get their life back. And that's my biggest wish for people is that they don't wait for their anxiety to go away, but they no longer allow their anxiety to decide the decisions in their life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're right, it is a hard feeling to sit through and accept. But what other choice is there? Suffering, regret, and I mean, is that, is that the second option? How stinky it would be to like live in that life. Right, you become such a bitter person, resentful and not very cheerful. I mean, what does it do when you don't accept it? Life?
Speaker 1:becomes very safe. You do maybe avoid some pain, but you also avoid the freaking beauty of life. Is life safe, though? No, no, and that's so hard to accept. There's a chapter towards the end of the book, because so much of anxiety really boils down to this fear, and we're going deep for a second here, this fear of death, this fear of the end.
Speaker 2:You know what I always say and that's so interesting, you brought that up the scariest thing is that, but we're never afraid of that, right? Like why aren't we thinking about that on a daily basis? Think about it Like it's so scary, Like we're all going to die one day. Yeah, we're not afraid of that, we don't have anxiety of that. But we have anxiety of what if I go on this interview and I fail? Or what if I have a baby or I'm not, for by all means I'm not, you know, saying those things don't matter. Yes, there's all types of anxieties and we're scared of it, validating every single person. But the biggest, scariest thing, that's like waving at us. We're like, yeah, whatever, and we're so afraid of these other experiences.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think for a lot of folks it is such a deeply unconscious fear, this fear of the end, or this fear of pain and suffering, of loss. Right, because it's not just death of ourselves, it's death of the ones that we love and care about most.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1:You look at something like separation anxiety, right, this fear of not being with our loved ones. People think it's like the little preschooler clinging to the parent's pant leg. No, there's adults who are literally scared. Yes, I'm like that. It's the most common. It's commonly diagnosed actually more so in like college age students than little kids and so many people are petrified. What if something happens to my parent? What if something happens to my partner? That lack of control is so hard for people to sit with Very hard.
Speaker 2:Does that mean that parents should take it easy on the kiddos? I mean, like is over nurturing? Does that? How do you prevent a child from being, or an adult from being, anxiously attached to a parent? That separation anxiety?
Speaker 1:You know it's funny talking about this now as a parent myself, because before I was a parent it was like full acceptance Go out in the world.
Speaker 1:Live your life. Now it's so much easier said than done. My dad, for example. He's a helicopter pilot. That's like his greatest hobby in life. I know he is so excited to take my son up for a flight and I'm like, but I understand your worry, you are not getting in that plane. Or like even you know we've got a wedding this weekend. My husband and I are going, my son's staying with my folks. I don't like being on a plane, you know, with my husband and my son is left behind. That's a little bit of an exposure. It's accepting that there are things in life, in fact many things, that we can't control and we still have to live our lives. We can't box ourselves in Our life. Our world gets so small if we give in to every anxious whim. That's not a very fulfilling or fruitful life and it is so teaching our kids a message that they can't live bravely. That, to me, would be a disservice to my son if he did not feel like he could challenge the boundaries and stretch himself, you know.
Speaker 2:So we've all got to lean into that discomfort a little bit and let our babies fly out of the nest, absolutely, and this goes for any type of anxiety and I, you know we'll finish with this because I know we're fly out of the nest. Absolutely, and this goes for any type of anxiety and I, you know we'll finish with this because I know we're running out of time a little bit. I know you have a family to go to, but absolutely we'll finish with that. Every single person that is struggling with anxiety is, you know, the way to overcome. That is with this living with this exposure way to overcome. That is with this living with this exposure, constantly exposing yourself to the most difficult things and being okay with that, not necessarily comfortable, but looking at what that would do to you if you didn't experience.
Speaker 1:Yes. That's so beautifully said yeah, live your life even though it's uncomfortable and it's scary. So much of the book, and you can even see on the cover there's waves. I use an ocean metaphor throughout the book to get in the water Even though it's cold, even though it's uncomfortable. Do not sit on the shore of your life and watch everyone in the water enjoying the swim. Get in there, ride the waves. That's where the full, big-hearted living is.
Speaker 2:That's where courage is developed as well. Dr Lauren Cook, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate you. Beautiful conversation. Thank you, edith, of course. ©. Bf-watch.
Speaker 1:TV 2021.